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Battlestar Galactica: The Board Game – Pegasus Expansion» Forums » Rules

Subject: XO'd Cylon Infiltrator rss

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Alan Irene
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This may have been answered already, but I cannot find anything about it.

If I am an infiltrating Cylon, if I am XO'd, can I use the first action to return to the Resurrection ship, then draw a Super Crisis Card with my second action?

Not sure if this was like revealing in that your turn ends once you reveal.
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I don't know whether this specific case has been covered, but I would have thought it was equivalent to an XO to a player who uses the first action to reveal as a Cylon. It has been confirmed that in this case the second action is lost.

So I would have said No.
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Ragh Gavar
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The second action is lost for revealing cylons because the step after "Receive Super Crisis" is "End Turn". There is no way they can take another action if their turn has ended.

For cylon leaders, there is no End Turn step. The rules do not say to follow the procedure for revealing yourself as a cylon:
Quote:
A Cylon Leader may always return to the “Resurrection
Ship” as an action. When using this action in the “Brig”
or in “Detention,” he must then discard all but three
Skill Cards from his hand (of his choice). If a Cylon
Leader returns to the “Resurrection Ship” for any reason
(including being executed), he is no longer Infiltrating.

So the cylon leader should get the second action.

Your mileage may vary.
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Sean Werner
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quote wrote:

Leader returns to the “Resurrection Ship” for any reason
(including being executed), he is no longer Infiltrating.


Therefore no longer effected by XO's... no second action.
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stwerner92182 wrote:
quote wrote:

Leader returns to the “Resurrection Ship” for any reason
(including being executed), he is no longer Infiltrating.


Therefore no longer effected by XO's... no second action.


By what rule? There is nothing that checks between actions if the person is still a legal target. He can no longer be targetted by XO's, but he was targetted before he returned to the ressurection ship.
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Ragh Gavar
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stwerner92182 wrote:
Therefore no longer effected by XO's... no second action.

XO says "any player" not "any human player".
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Mordenthral wrote:
stwerner92182 wrote:
Therefore no longer effected by XO's... no second action.

XO says "any player" not "any human player".


This came up in our most recent game!

I reasoned from this sentence from the base game rules -- "Revealed Cylon players may not use actions or abilities listed on Skill cards" p.20 -- that a Revealed Cylon cannot be targeted by an unrevealed (i.e. human) player with an XO.

As I've thought about it, though, I think I was wrong. Anyone know the answer? Can an unrevealed cylon target a Revealed Cylon with an XO?
 
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Carl Ramrod wrote:
Mordenthral wrote:
stwerner92182 wrote:
Therefore no longer effected by XO's... no second action.

XO says "any player" not "any human player".


This came up in our most recent game!

I reasoned from this sentence from the base game rules -- "Revealed Cylon players may not use actions or abilities listed on Skill cards" p.20 -- that a Revealed Cylon cannot be targeted by an unrevealed (i.e. human) player with an XO.

As I've thought about it, though, I think I was wrong. Anyone know the answer? Can an unrevealed cylon target a Revealed Cylon with an XO?


This is covered in the FAQ:

Q: Can a revealed Cylon player be targeted by the "Executive Order" Skill card or Quorum cards?
A: No.
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Todd Warnken
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To answer the original question (also from the FAQ):

Q: What happens if an unrevealed Cylon is targeted by an "Executive
Order" and reveals himself as his first action.
A: He would be unable to take his second action. (Following the
“Revealed Cylon Players" instructions on page 19, his turn ends
after revealing). The current player then continues his turn.

I believe this applies to Cylon Leaders.
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Mundane wrote:
To answer the original question (also from the FAQ):

Q: What happens if an unrevealed Cylon is targeted by an "Executive
Order" and reveals himself as his first action.
A: He would be unable to take his second action. (Following the
“Revealed Cylon Players" instructions on page 19, his turn ends
after revealing). The current player then continues his turn.

I believe this applies to Cylon Leaders.



This would be true for any unrevealed cylon player using their action to reveal their loyalty card. I do not believe that this applies to cylon leaders. Infiltrating rules say that cylon leaders can return to the resurrection ship "as an action." If Cavil used his once per game, and his first action was to return to the resurrection ship, he would not lose his 2nd action, nor his turn action.
I suppose this should make human players wary of XO'ing leaders.


Another good question. A player is XO'd while on airlock. For their first action, they activate airlock targetting their own character. Success, they are executed. When they come back into play, do they get the 2nd action?
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Sean Werner
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Page 7 of the pegasus rules are very clear... they read "A Cylon Leader is considered a human player when he is Infiltrating and a Cylon player when he is not Infiltrating.

The FAQ specifically says that a cylon player cannot be the target of an XO...

Since going to the Res. Ship immediately ends your infiltration, it also means you immediately become a "cylon player", who cannot be targeted by an XO.

In short, no second action.

I do agree that Cavil would continue his turn if he used his once-per-game... however, that is certainly not an XO or a card effect for that matter... so he would not become immune to it when he switches from being a human player to being a cylon player.
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Play it however you want. In my game cylon leaders get their second action, even if they return to cylon locations. Moving from human player to cylon player doesn't cancel the XO that has already been played on you, it makes you immune to future XOs.
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The "Critical Situation" card has the same issue since it gives you two actions. The FAQ needs to clarify if a Cylon Leader's turn ends when they return to the resurrection ship.
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Sean Werner
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I guess I just don't see the grey area, its all very clear... the rules say, when you return to the ressurection ship for any reason you are no longer infiltrating.

When you aren't infiltrating you are a cylon player.

Cylon players are immune to the effects of skill cards. I don't care when they were played, the effects no longer apply to you, you aren't considered human anymore.

Its true, going to the ressurection doesn't CANCEL the effect of the XO, there just isn't a target for it anymore.

This isn't about whether the cylon leader's turn is over, its about the fact that cylon players cannot be targeted with skill cards. As far as I can tell, the cylon leader's turn does NOT immediately end, Cavil could use his once-a-game to go to the ressurection ship and then draw two super crisis cards, but that effect is targeted on Cavil and does not rely on whether he is a human player or a cylon player.

In the case of Critical Situation, why couldn't you use the action it gives you to go to the ressurection ship, then take your action, the effects of the card are resolved before you quit being human, you'd still be entitled to YOUR action phase, its part of your turn, not something that's granted to you by a skill card, that's not the case with executive order, its the ongoing effect of the card that grants the second action, the ongoing effects of the skill card that can no longer effect you.
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stwerner92182 wrote:

This isn't about whether the cylon leader's turn is over, its about the fact that cylon players cannot be targeted with skill cards. As far as I can tell, the cylon leader's turn does NOT immediately end, Cavil could use his once-a-game to go to the ressurection ship and then draw two super crisis cards, but that effect is targeted on Cavil and does not rely on whether he is a human player or a cylon player.

In the case of Critical Situation, why couldn't you use the action it gives you to go to the ressurection ship, then take your action, the effects of the card are resolved before you quit being human, you'd still be entitled to YOUR action phase, its part of your turn, not something that's granted to you by a skill card, that's not the case with executive order, its the ongoing effect of the card that grants the second action, the ongoing effects of the skill card that can no longer effect you.


Neither "critical situation" nor "executive orders" has an "ongoing effect."* Executive orders targets you, gives you two actions in your action pool, and is finished resolving at this point. You simply have two actions left to play in the current turn. You don't even have to use them! By the time you're back on the resurrection ship, you still have one action left to play.

* For paedants, both have the ongoing effect that you're not allowed to play another XO or CS this turn, but that's not important now.
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bppcomplete wrote:
stwerner92182 wrote:

This isn't about whether the cylon leader's turn is over, its about the fact that cylon players cannot be targeted with skill cards. As far as I can tell, the cylon leader's turn does NOT immediately end, Cavil could use his once-a-game to go to the ressurection ship and then draw two super crisis cards, but that effect is targeted on Cavil and does not rely on whether he is a human player or a cylon player.

In the case of Critical Situation, why couldn't you use the action it gives you to go to the ressurection ship, then take your action, the effects of the card are resolved before you quit being human, you'd still be entitled to YOUR action phase, its part of your turn, not something that's granted to you by a skill card, that's not the case with executive order, its the ongoing effect of the card that grants the second action, the ongoing effects of the skill card that can no longer effect you.


Neither "critical situation" nor "executive orders" has an "ongoing effect."* Executive orders targets you, gives you two actions in your action pool, and is finished resolving at this point. You simply have two actions left to play in the current turn. You don't even have to use them! By the time you're back on the resurrection ship, you still have one action left to play.

* For paedants, both have the ongoing effect that you're not allowed to play another XO or CS this turn, but that's not important now.


Unless I see otherwise from Corey I'm going to have to agree that if you play an executive order on a cylon infiltrator and they go back to the rez ship with their first action, they do not get a second one. I can see the logic of both arguments, but I think that its important , for now, to assume that the effects of skill cards immediately end when they player changes to a cylon.
 
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stwerner92182 wrote:


I do agree that Cavil would continue his turn if he used his once-per-game... however, that is certainly not an XO or a card effect for that matter... so he would not become immune to it when he switches from being a human player to being a cylon player.


Isn't Cavils OPG a movement ability? Would returning to the Res ship count as a movement (from one space to another) or an action (effectivly a reveal)? If it's the former, you couldn't use Cavil's ability this way.
 
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Sean Werner
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Where does it ever mention an "action pool" or anything like that? The card grants you one action, then it grants you another, it seems that its effect over you would end as soon as you stop being a human player.

Cavil's ability allows you two actions AS your movement, the rules say that going to the res. ship specifically takes an action.

If there is an errata made about this, great, but until then, I really really think the rules make it very clear. I can specifically see in the rules my point, perhaps I'm missing something, and if I am please show me, this would certainly not be the first time that I've missed something in the rules, but thus far the only proof I see for letting the cylon leader take the second action would be a desire to make them more "dangerous".
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stwerner92182 wrote:
Where does it ever mention an "action pool" or anything like that? The card grants you one action, then it grants you another, it seems that its effect over you would end as soon as you stop being a human player.

Cavil's ability allows you two actions AS your movement, the rules say that going to the res. ship specifically takes an action.

If there is an errata made about this, great, but until then, I really really think the rules make it very clear. I can specifically see in the rules my point, perhaps I'm missing something, and if I am please show me, this would certainly not be the first time that I've missed something in the rules, but thus far the only proof I see for letting the cylon leader take the second action would be a desire to make them more "dangerous".


Can you quote the exact part of the rules that you are using to make this assertion? I'm not disagreeing with you - you just seem very certain, and I'd like to know which part you are referring to to back up your claim...?
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stwerner92182 wrote:
The card grants you one action, then it grants you another, it seems that its effect over you would end as soon as you stop being a human player... perhaps I'm missing something, and if I am please show me

From the XO card: He may move his character and then take 1 action OR not move and take 2 actions.

It doesn't say 'take one action and then another', or even, 'if you cease being a valid target of this card, cancel its effects'; it gives you 2 actions, period.

The reason a revealing cylon does not get a second action is in the rules where after getting their Super Crisis, the follow step is End Turn. That ends their turn right there, they can do nothing else, period. The XO effect wasn't cancelled just because they are now a revealed cylon. The effect was -ended- because their turn -ended-.

Again, though, play how you want.
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Mundane wrote:
To answer the original question (also from the FAQ):

Q: What happens if an unrevealed Cylon is targeted by an "Executive
Order" and reveals himself as his first action.
A: He would be unable to take his second action. (Following the
“Revealed Cylon Players" instructions on page 19, his turn ends
after revealing). The current player then continues his turn.

I believe this applies to Cylon Leaders.

I believe it does not. When a leader uses an action to return to the cylon locations there is no indication in the rules that you follow the process for revealing as a cylon. Indeed, they don't follow it as they do not have to discard (unless in the Brig/Detention), they don't get a Super Crisis, and (following the steps) their turn does not end.

It even says in your quote from the FAQ "Following the “Revealed Cylon Players" instructions on page 19, his turn ends after revealing". Leaders do not follow the instructions on page 19; they simply 'go to the Resurrection Ship' as an action.
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Mundane wrote:
This is covered in the FAQ:

Q: Can a revealed Cylon player be targeted by the "Executive Order" Skill card or Quorum cards?
A: No.

This was an oversight by FFG, then. If they FAQ it there's no arguing this specific point. But in the Pegasus rules they go out of their way to explain the distinction between "player", "human player" and "cylon player". There's an entire section devoted to the definitions. The XO card says "any player." Without knowing the FAQ, it would be legal to play an XO on a cylon player.

Thanks for pointing this out from the FAQ though.
 
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Mordenthral wrote:
Mundane wrote:
This is covered in the FAQ:

Q: Can a revealed Cylon player be targeted by the "Executive Order" Skill card or Quorum cards?
A: No.

This was an oversight by FFG, then. If they FAQ it there's no arguing this specific point. But in the Pegasus rules they go out of their way to explain the distinction between "player", "human player" and "cylon player". There's an entire section devoted to the definitions. The XO card says "any player." Without knowing the FAQ, it would be legal to play an XO on a cylon player.

Thanks for pointing this out from the FAQ though.


The problem still remains though that "targetting" only takes place at the time you play the card, not throughout the cards effect, so referencing this FAQ entry doesn't solve anything.

The closest I've been able to find on the subject is this single line in the base rulebook:

"Revealed Cylon players may not use actions or abilities listed
on Skill Cards."


So it depends on how the word "use" is being used in this context. If it said something like "Revealed Cylon players may not benefit from actions or abilities listed on skill cards" that would be a little clearer in this matter (though still somewhat vague), but it doesn't. You could still argue that it wasn't the Cylon player who "used" the ability - he was merely the target/beneficiary of it.

I'm inclined to go either way, but am not about to base a decision on an assumption that Cylon Leaders should behave exactly like hidden Cylons (because they very clearly don't).
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I would make the analogy from Starbuck-in-space. If she starts her turn in space, she can have a second action, even if she lands. If you are a legal target of an XO, that doesn't change that you get the two actions if you suddenly no longer are a legal target for the XO.
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We played our first game last night, but didn't use Cylon Leaders in order to keep the rules questions to a minimum.

We've discussed the Cylon Leaders mechanic, so my comments will be directed towards my understanding as a result of those discussions.

IMO, returning to the Resurrection ship is not revealing yourself as a Cylon. Revealing is a specific action in and of itself.

The human players might make an assumption about what the player is doing, but he has not revealed his agenda, which a Cylon Leader cannot do, in any event, unless he's executed.

My opinion is subject to change if there is a rule forbidding a Cylon Leader from returning to the Resurrection ship without revealing his agenda.

The point here is that the Cylon Leader does not have a loyalty card.
His agenda card is handled completely differently. Sounds like good strategy.

Lull the humans into a false sense of security and then at an opportune time, like when he's x'od, hit 'em where it hurts.

I haven't gone through all the agenda cards, but it seems that the CL has two contingencies to winning.

You win if the humans win, but contingency two has to also apply.

You win if the Cylons win, but contingency two has to also apply.

I think the second conditions have to do with resources being at a certain level.

When in doubt, take him out.

All of the above worth about two cents USD.

Brian
 
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