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The title says it all. Saboteur is great, but not quite meaty enough. BSG is too meaty for the family. We need something in between.
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David Kahnt
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Shadows over Camelot?

The Castle of the Devil?

-DK
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Ben Lott
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I have to agree with Shadows over Camelot. It's not too complicated, but creates a similar feel to BSG thanks to the traitor mechanism.
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David Kahnt
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Blott wrote:
I have to agree with Shadows over Camelot. It's not too complicated, but creates a similar feel to BSG thanks to the traitor mechanism.


Yeah... that's what I thought. Perhaps get Shadows over Camelot: Merlin's Company to have either a second traitor or play with 7 people (plus the extra character) to have a definite traitor in the mix.

-DK
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Nick Fisk
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Stoke on Trent
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That's weird. This bit used to mention Shire Games, and tell you all how wonderful we are. But it seems to have got deleted. Let's see what happens this time ....
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Also, maybe have a look at:

Shadow Hunters

Bacchus' Banquet


N.
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Mike Jones
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Shadows can drag sometimes. Although it 'tends' to be shorter then BSG. I'd just be cautious.

I think someone did a 'hidden identity' geeklist. I'll see if I can find it, but if someone can post a link that might be a good place to start.

I'm assuming that's the part you want to explore.

Heimlich & Co. may be good, but it's not much of a 'gamer's game', it's most assuredly a standard family game. (As is Quicksand)

You might look into Incognito: The Game of Charades and Inkognito: The Card Game, although I haven't tried them. But, its the hidden identity mixed with clue kinda thing.

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Garry Lloyd
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Holmes Chapel
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How about Shadow Hunters
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Mike Jones
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Here it is:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/45561

But, it didn't take off, so there isn't much there.

I really wouldn't put BANG! in the same 'feel' as Saboteur and BSG though.
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Nick Fisk
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And maybe another one I just thought of:

The Name of the Rose


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Edwin Priest
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Maybe not exactly what you are seeking, but Citadels is a great game.

Even if you don't play with your family, this game belongs in your collection.
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Pee di Moor
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I don't know how large your 'family' is, but I generally only like Saboteur when with 6+.

In that same category/groupnumber, I have to agree with the proposed The Castle of the Devil.

A completely other suggestion is Red November. Although categorized as co-op there's the possibility to screw the other and win solo. Moreover there's a nasty gnomes variant described that smells like Saboteur.
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Jeff Hinrickson
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It's been said twice and I will triple the motion for Shadow Hunters.
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♫ Eric Herman ♫
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Yeah, Shadow Hunters and Shadows Over Camelot, no doubt... I think Shadows flows better and will be shorter with 5 players, though the full complement of 7 (or 8 with Merlin's Company) is probably the best in terms of gameplay.
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What about Space Alert? It's fairly meaty (and chaotic), but it can be learned in small, easy to digest bites. Apparently 4 to 5 players are ideal for this game, so it wouldn't be able to handle as many players as some of the other suggestions.
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Jeff Jackson
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Mather
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I second Citadels. It doesn't offer a true unknown saboteur, but the role selection process allows for great bluffing and second-guessing of others' choices. Because of that, I would put it in a similar genre with BSG and Saboteur.

The Castle of the Devil offers a blind two team game that would probably fit the bill also. A lot of guessing, then second-guessing, the reassuring - good, good stuff.

And finally Shadow Hunters offers each player a unique role with different win condition. The conditions are set up so that multiple players can win any game. Like the others, your constantly guessing who is who to determine friend or foe. I personally give a slight nudge to Teufelsburg over Shadow Hunters, but an ever so slightly nudge.

And for what it's worth, Shadows over Camelot used to be my favorite co-op, but IMHO, BSG destroys it. I personally wouldn't recommend 'back-tracking' so to speak. Again, my $0.02.
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I will not rest until Biblios is in the Top 100. - Steve Oksienik
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Thank you for your suggestions. Most of these options are solid suggestions.
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Tim Collins
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I'd say BANG! The Bullet! for sure! This has a nice element of deputies versus outlaws where everyone is tryign to figure out who the others are. Plus there are renegades who want to be the one who kills the sherrif him/herself. So, at the start of the game they dont want the sherrif to die and at the end of the game (if the renegade makes it) they try to kill the sherrif. Game is about 20-40 minutes and really fast fun. sadows over camelot seems to suffer from the bossy player dominating the game syndrome.
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Tim Collins
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Guantanamo wrote:
Here it is:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/45561

But, it didn't take off, so there isn't much there.

I really wouldn't put BANG! in the same 'feel' as Saboteur and BSG though.


They have similarities for sure. to me they even 'feel' similar. though 'feel' is all subjective of course
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Garcian Smith
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Hmmm...

Shadows over Camelot was my first identity sort of game. It was fun when I learned it. However, the game has very fiddly and hidden rules. You see, it's a game about a collection of "mini-games" You have to know how to win the overall game and how to win the "mini-games" or quests. You have to keep in mind several rules such as:

- No drawing cards at Camelot if you have 12 or more
- Leaving a solo quest will remove any player cards on it
- a Black Knight or Lancelot card may be placed face down for a card
- Players may not perform the same action twice on the same turn
- Picts/Saxons can be destroyed with a Merlin

And so on. If you are willing to go through with it, it's also somewhat longer than I would like for a game of its simplicity.

Bang is a game that I got more plays out of when I go to college. There's several roles: Sheriff, Renegade, Outlaw and Deputies. It's not a hard game to learn. However, I find it needs to go fast, because down-time can be atrocious with larger groups. I think overall, it can be just about boiled to this: Sheriff waits for the numbers to go down... everyone else shoot everyone but the Sheriff, otherwise you give yourself away that you are the Outlaw.

Shadow Hunters is a game I've been playing a lot recently. This game has 3 teams: Shadows, Hunters and Neutrals. The Shadows and the Hunters are out to kill each other. The Neutrals are trying to complete their own goals, whether it's collecting items or being the first one to die. What I really like about this game is that it's really fast, yet maintains the flavor of identity games.

So the three games I talked to you about... only are really worth it for 5 players. Camelot is the longest at about 90 minutes, both Shadow Hunters and Bang hit around 30.
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ojannen

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I have been looking for the game in between saboteur and bsg for a while with no luck. The reason my group enjoys them is that as the group gets better at the game, individuals are forced to make suboptimal choices to hide their identity. As new people start playing the game for the first time, the group dynamic completely changes, and everyone needs to relearn how to win.

The problem with bang and shadow hunters is that to really enjoy them, the entire group needs to be playing with the mindset that suboptimal moves are bad. To make the game long enough to use your characters, you must not attack anyone unless you are sure of their identity. The other option, blindly attacking everyone evenly puts you in an extremely advantageous position.

Once my group figured that out, we just stopped playing the games because the really interesting characters were not in the game long enough to have an impact. New players didn't change the group dynamic because they just lost until they started using the strategy. The bluffing element was removed for the most part, and the games turned into deduction games.

Clans is pretty good, possibly a step better than Heimlich. No ideas on Shadows over Camelot. My group hated pandemic so much that another possibly pure coop looked like a bad idea.
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Klaus Brune
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It's not "really" similar, in that, though it's one-vs-many, the "one" is obviously the opposition. Worth a look, though...

Fury of Dracula (second edition)
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