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Subject: RGG rules VS HiG rules: discrepancies? rss

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Jojo Conwell
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I am aware of one difference in the rules.

In one version (the latest?) of the FFG under Final Scoring, you will see that duplicates of the civilization cards only score one point each; whereas the word on the Geek is that HiG scores duplicates as a second set using the squared score mechanism.

Are there any other differences?
Does each resource count for 1 point in every version of the game?
What rules does the online version use?
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Steve Duff
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Re: FFG rules VS HiG rules: discrepancies?
The squared sets is the only rules difference I know of.
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Adam Brant
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Re: FFG rules VS HiG rules: discrepancies?
FFG=?

Flying Frog Games?
Fantasy Flight Games?

Neither make sense here since neither publish this game. So clue me in, FFG=?
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Anselmo Diaz
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Re: FFG rules VS HiG rules: discrepancies?
GamerAtom wrote:
FFG=?

Flying Frog Games?
Fantasy Flight Games?

Neither make sense here since neither publish this game. So clue me in, FFG=?


I second this. New ruleset? By who? where?
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Jojo Conwell
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My mistake, I corrected the title.
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Bobby Warren
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I looked at the HiG rules and didn't see any place that looked like you scored for each set.

I then opened the RGG rule set and see the same thing:

Quote:
Multiple the different civilization cards with the green backgrounds by themselves.

We always took this to mean that each symbol was only counted once and each duplicate symbol was worthless.

But if you look at the first opage of the civilization card reference sheet (page 8 of the RGG PDF), it says:

Quote:
During the final scoring, each player multiplies the number of different card by itself and adds extras.

Example: Ea player has 5 civilization cards with different culture symbols = 25 points (5x5). In addition, he has 1 extra pottery + 1 point (1x1) = 26 points.

So which is right?
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James Cartwright
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I've always used this rule and never had a problem as it was stated in the rules.

Each player has 5 civilization cards with different culture symbols = 25 points (5x5). In addition, he has 1 extra pottery + 1 point (1x1) = 26 points
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Bobby Warren
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Rindel wrote:
I've always used this rule and never had a problem as it was stated in the rules.

Each player has 5 civilization cards with different culture symbols = 25 points (5x5). In addition, he has 1 extra pottery + 1 point (1x1) = 26 points

The issue I have is there is a contradiction between the rules and the reference. Plus, I never had someone make the square multiple sets argument before. Without the reference sheet discrepancy, I could almost be convinced that it was a valid argument andwould definitely like clarification on that point.

Nice avatar, BTW.
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James Cartwright
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Thanks.

I don't think I've even noticed the discrepancy between the the ref sheet and rules till folks here started bringing it up. I'll still continue to play the way I always have.
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Bobby Warren
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Rindel wrote:
Thanks.

I don't think I've even noticed the discrepancy between the the ref sheet and rules till folks here started bringing it up. I'll still continue to play the way I always have.

Barring an official answer, I will likely switch to it, also. It makes sense since each additional good is also worth a point.
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James Cartwright
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Sounds like a plan

Even if they change it officially I might carry on playing it the way I have, if eveyone I'm playing with is happy with the rule then I don't see the point in changing it.
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Steve Duff
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Bobby4th wrote:
Plus, I never had someone make the square multiple sets argument before.


In one of the threads here, HiG admitted they used a poor example for the extra (1x1) and said that you should square the extras as if it were a second set. 1 extra = 1, 2 extra = 4, and so on.

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Jojo Conwell
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wrote:

So which is right?

The following linked post shows a scan of a later version of the RGG rule with a clearer explanation, saying that duplicates are worth one point each.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/3207129#3207129
 
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Steve Duff
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Technically, both versions are right, since they're both published rules.

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe BSW uses the HiG square the second set rule.
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Jim bo
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
Technically, both versions are right, since they're both published rules.

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe BSW uses the HiG square the second set rule.

yes BSW does use the second set rule and i believe this makes the game more balanced.

if the duplicate cards were only worth 1 point each it would lessen the value of the green culture cards relative to the multiplier cards and huts and i don't think that's good for the game.
 
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James Cartwright
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So with this rule change, if it becomes official. I could instead of trying to work out how to get different types of civ cards (which I think is a great part of the game and adds alot to it) just grab any card going, be they duplicates or not and make up a second set, third set etc and score them

It seems to me that this rule takes alot of the strategy and fun out of the game for me.
 
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William Crispin
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Rindel wrote:
So with this rule change, if it becomes official. I could instead of trying to work out how to get different types of civ cards (which I think is a great part of the game and adds alot to it) just grab any card going, be they duplicates or not and make up a second set, third set etc and score them

It seems to me that this rule takes alot of the strategy and fun out of the game for me.


There are only two of each card so the maximum you could have would be 8x8 + 8x8 = 128. It still is more valuable to finish out a single set.

6x6 = 36 versus two sets of 3 (3x3 + 3x3 = 18)

I do not think there was ever an official ruling that second sets do not count (or only count as 1 point). It was just a question of a poorly chosen example which did not clearly illustrate it one way or the other. The current RGG version has clarified the example to validate that duplicate cards can be scored as a second set.
 
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Gláucio Reis
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wwscrispin wrote:
The current RGG version has clarified the example to validate that duplicate cards can be scored as a second set.

Is that true? I think the main reason why the debate continues is that RGG clarified the rule not in accordance to HiG, to say that extra cards do not score as a second set. Did Jay change his mind on a rule? That would be surprising.
 
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William Crispin
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GSReis wrote:
wwscrispin wrote:
The current RGG version has clarified the example to validate that duplicate cards can be scored as a second set.

Is that true? I think the main reason why the debate continues is that RGG clarified the rule not in accordance to HiG, to say that extra cards do not score as a second set. Did Jay change his mind on a rule? That would be surprising.


I am not sure if Jay said it but the fact that newer RGG rules show a clarified example led me to believe that was the case.
 
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Jim bo
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Rindel wrote:
So with this rule change, if it becomes official. I could instead of trying to work out how to get different types of civ cards (which I think is a great part of the game and adds alot to it) just grab any card going, be they duplicates or not and make up a second set, third set etc and score them

It seems to me that this rule takes alot of the strategy and fun out of the game for me.

firstly the maximum number of sets you can have is 2.

secondly because of the squaring equation it's still optimal to maximise one set than have the same number of cards but split between 2 sets. therefore there's still an incentive to target unique cards rather than just grab whatever is going.
 
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Grzegorz Kobiela
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Jim bo is absolutely right. Let's do some math:

(i) Creating subsets is worth than scoring a full set.

You've got n unique cards and you want to score them in two subsets, one containing 0<k<n cards and the other, obviously, 0<n-k<n cards.

You score:

(n-k)² + k²
= n² - 2nk + 2k²
= n² - 2k(n-k) < n² (both, k>0 and n-k>0)

Scoring the whole set of n cards gives n² points - more than scoring two subsets. q. e. d.


(ii) Moving cards from one set to another is worth than scoring one greatest and one smallest set.

You've got m unique cards and 0<n<m duplicates. However, you want to move 0<k<m-n cards from set m to set n.

You score:

(m-k)² + (n+k)²
= m² - 2mk + n² + 2nk + 2k²
= m² + n² - 2k(m-n-k) < m² + n² (both, k>0 and m-n-k>0)

Scoring a full set of unique cards and another one with duplicates gives m² + n² points - more than scoring "mixed" sets. q. e. d.


Examples:

(i) You've got A, B, C, D, E. That's 5²=25 points. Splitting 1-4 or 2-3 gives only 1²+4²=17 or 2²+3²=13 points, respectively.

(ii) You've got A, A, B, B, C, D, E. That's 5²+2²=29 points. Splitting like A-B-C-D and A-B-E is only 4²+3²=25 points.
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