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Subject: White Dwarf #356 Replay Question rss

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Nevin Ball
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On Turn 1 of the replay in White Dwarf #356, the Space Marine player moved his two lead Terminators (Goriel & Deino) to side corridors then placed them in overwatch.

I am following along with my game and I don't see how this is possible with four APs (the Space Marine player only had one CP so that's not it). From what I can tell it takes 5 APs to do this:2 moves, 1 90 degree turn, the overwatch.

Is the replay incorrect, or am I not accounting for something?
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Royston Jones
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I've read this article also. I think that the Marine player has spent a CP on both the marines that go into overwatch. Therefore he has used a CP that he didn't have available.
 
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Brad Miller
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Bill Gates
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I was wondering the same thing. I just played the scenario, and it's impossible with only one CP.

Now, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt that there was just an error in the graphic and Andy had more than one CP -- but Jervis mentions in his commentary that Andy ended up with only one CP (drew a "3" first, chose to draw again and got a "1"). Hmmmmm ....
 
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Slev Sleddeddan
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I didn't notice that either. It would indeed cost 5AP per terminator.
 
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They were just using Artistic license. The rules also say that it is the genestealers player's responsibility to keep track of the CP usage, so if he didn't move the marker then legally the error did not happen. It's kind of like watching a replay of a bad pitch called as a strike in baseball.
Of course when your writing an article about what transpired, you would think someone would have noticed this.
So the terminators actually lost this match.
 
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Lance Moody
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Space Hulk 3rd edition is my 1st Games Workshop game... the rules are so horribly incomplete, missing many obvious situations. Are all their games like that?

I'm getting the feeling that many players just sort of use rules that they make up on the spot.

Lance
 
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The Price of Knowledge is Despair
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There were several errors, which are probably because they really played several games and then 'touched them up' to illustrate various rules. The first turn must have been played with 3 CP, but then they decided to put the re-roll example in and forgot to change it.

Try to figure out the last turn - at various points they state that the SM player needed 5 or 6 CP and got 6, but also that he finished with 3 to spare, which makes no sense. What probably happened is that Zael was attacked from behind in the prior turn and foolishly turned 180 degrees, causing him to need 2 more CP than he would have required.

BTW, by my reading you don't need overwatch on the first turn, because those squares are w/in 6 of the entry squares, so no GS can enter.
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Kevin Outlaw
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The most important thing to remember is that these "reports" are designed to show off particular situations and game rules and they will adjust layouts to fit (despite their claims to the contrary).

This is particularly prevalent in battle reports when they create a specific (often silly) situations to show off the powers of a new hero character. I enjoy reading the reports (mistakes and all), but I am well aware they are really just (like the rest of the magazine) a big advertisement for whatever GW want to sell this month.

(Oh, and there are 6 clear spaces between the marines and the entry point, so stealers can still enter the board on that first turn.)
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Rob Corn
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
(Oh, and there are 6 clear spaces between the marines and the entry point, so stealers can still enter the board on that first turn.)

Page 16 says "If a Space Marine is six or fewer squares away from an entry point square at the start of the Genestealer phase, then any reinforcement blips placed there must lurk for the rest of the turn."

Even though this is a first edition diagram the rule is the same in 3rd:

So I think the way the replay had the Marines positioned they would not have needed overwatch (from memory, if a Marine is in the first square off of the main corridor, he has six squares to the entry and therefore the Genestealers have to lurk).
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Kevin Outlaw
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Haggis wrote:
RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
(Oh, and there are 6 clear spaces between the marines and the entry point, so stealers can still enter the board on that first turn.)

Page 16 says "If a Space Marine is six or fewer squares away from an entry point square at the start of the Genestealer phase, then any reinforcement blips placed there must lurk for the rest of the turn."

Even though this is a first edition diagram the rule is the same in 3rd:

So I think the way the replay had the Marines positioned they would not have needed overwatch (from memory, if a Marine is in the first square off of the main corridor, he has six squares to the entry and therefore the Genestealers have to lurk).


That seems dumb to me (even with the 1st ed diagram, which has no place here )

The whole point of the lurking rule is it stops a stealer coming on to the board and being able to attack on its first turn. If the marine has 6 clear spaces between him and the entry, the stealer wouldn't be able to reach him in one turn (he could stand next to him and get shot in the face next go - not smart).

Where's that FAQ?
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Rob Corn
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
That seems dumb to me (even with the 1st ed diagram, which has no place here :) )

The whole point of the lurking rule is it stops a stealer coming on to the board and being able to attack on its first turn. If the marine has 6 clear spaces between him and the entry, the stealer wouldn't be able to reach him in one turn (he could stand next to him and get shot in the face next go - not smart).

Where's that FAQ? :)

Yeah, that's why I put the disclaimer about the diagram. In this case, though, the 1st edition rule is almost word-for-word the 3rd edition rule so it's still applicable (but yeah, we have enough trouble with 1st edition examples being used to support 3rd edition rules...).

When I first learned Space Hulk I assumed that the rule was to prevent immediate attacks, too, but I guess it's to prevent a Genestealer from getting in the face of the Marine. The rule's pretty clear for this one, I don't think we'll see this in the FAQ.
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Kevin Outlaw
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Without a supporting 3rd ed diagram it is a bit iffy though. To me "six or fewer squares away" implies you start counting on the first empty space, and if you can count to six without hitting a marine, then you're cool to come out of the entry point because the marine is not within 6.

To me, the 1st ed rules seem a bit like (but not exactly like) arguing that a marine on overwatch can shoot a genestealer 13 spaces away because there are 12 empty spaces between the marine and the stealer.
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Rob Corn
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
Without a supporting 3rd ed diagram it is a bit iffy though. To me "six or fewer squares away" implies you start counting on the first empty space, and if you can count to six without hitting a marine, then you're cool to come out of the entry point because the marine is not within 6.

To me, the 1st ed rules seem a bit like (but not exactly like) arguing that a marine on overwatch can shoot a genestealer 13 spaces away because there are 12 empty spaces between the marine and the stealer.

Well, on page 13 under "Range", it says "To see if the target is within range, count the number of squares between the Space Marine and the target, including the target's square but not the Space Marine's."

The rule for lurking is "six or fewer squares away from an entry point square." Call the entry point square the target, apply the range rules, and I think that's pretty definitive.

Edit: OK, you got me thinking more about this and I'll admit it's unclear. I'll add it to the FAQ list.
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Kevin Outlaw
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Ha ha. I checked the range rules afterwards and noticed it was one area with nice clear rules!!

I guess the problem here is whether or not you assume the "entry point" is the first square on the board, or the space just off the board... An example like the one given for range would have cleared everything up.

(By the way - looking back at 1st ed rules, I am sure 3rd ed rules will be the same; but I hate having to use 1st ed to derive an answer.)

Damn it. Every post about this game ends up being a discussion about the rules. It's going to make people think this game sucks, when really it is one of the most awesome games ever made

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Rob Corn
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
Damn it. Every post about this game ends up being a discussion about the rules. It's going to make people think this game sucks, when really it is one of the most awesome games ever made


Amen, Brother Monkey. I hope if somebody's on the fence they can see that 90% of the rules questions are quibbles that don't really affect the game much anyway.

But I still want answers!
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The Price of Knowledge is Despair
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In this case it's academic, since the marines can advance one more square and render the point moot. But I'll admit I thought this rule was clear and identical to 1st Edition, but now I wonder what they meant to say.
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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Despite all my previous comments about battle reports and the fact they are full of errors, in this case, putting those two marines into overwatch in turn one definitely created a possible argument that the rules have changed slightly in this edition.

But really, as far as I am concerned, there are only two major rules that need clearing up to prevent games becoming unbalanced: Can I flame a room with a marine in it, and do genestealers get to take an action before I unjam my gun. Everything else is so minor, you can just play however you want. As long as I can come to an agreement with my opponent, it really doesn't matter.

GW tend to have pretty clear rules for their core games, but their "specialist" games have always been a little fuzzy. That's why they always say "if in doubt, dice for it." It's the best get out of jail free card they have in their arsenal
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Jack
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Haggis wrote:
Well, on page 13 under "Range", it says "To see if the target is within range, count the number of squares between the Space Marine and the target, including the target's square but not the Space Marine's."

The rule for lurking is "six or fewer squares away from an entry point square." Call the entry point square the target, apply the range rules, and I think that's pretty definitive.


You have stated it exactly right Rob. The rule says "entry point square", which is the square with the "6" in it in the above diagram (which is still legitimate for our purpose even if it is 1st edition).
 
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James H├ębert
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Anyone familiar with the term "parallel Bible" where multiple translations are laid out in a book side by side, allowing the reader to compare several different interpretations at a glance across a single spread?

We need a parallel rulebook for Space Hulk 1, 2, and 3.
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Jack
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
Despite all my previous comments about battle reports and the fact they are full of errors, in this case, putting those two marines into overwatch in turn one definitely created a possible argument that the rules have changed slightly in this edition.


RMB, when I saw the positioning of the Marines my first thought was that they did not have to pay for the 90 degree change of facing. I was wondering if the fact that one of the moves was a diagonal move had anything to do with it, after all if you really were going to move diagonally you would be changing your facing by 45 degrees to face the direction you were moving. Then to face down the hall would only require another 45 degree turn. But of course nothing in the rules supports this.

Edited for clarity.
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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I've actually realised it also makes a difference which way you count from

I have always counted from the entry point to the marine, as it seemed logical to me... 1 is the first space on the board by the entry point, and then you count out. If you don't "hit" a marine by the time you have counted to six, then you are safe to come out.

Conversely, if you start at the marine and use range rules, then 1 is the space ADJACENT to the marine, and then you count up towards the entry square. If you reach the entry square by the time you count to six then you are NOT safe to come out.

Basically, in the first example if a marine is on the seventh space you are fine, but the other way way you aren't. I couldn't find in the 3rd ed rules if there was a specific way to count.

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Jack
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
I've actually realised it also makes a difference which way you count from

I have always counted from the entry point to the marine, as it seemed logical to me... 1 is the first space on the board by the entry point, and then you count out. If you don't "hit" a marine by the time you have counted to six, then you are safe to come out.

Conversely, if you start at the marine and use range rules, then 1 is the space ADJACENT to the marine, and then you count up towards the entry square. If you reach the entry square by the time you count to six then you are NOT safe to come out.

Basically, in the first example if a marine is on the seventh space you are fine, but the other way way you aren't. I couldn't find in the 3rd ed rules if there was a specific way to count.



I use the same method that the rules describe for calculating the range to a target. Of course this means that a Marine 6 spaces away from the entry square (as in the diagram) couldn't be attacked by a Genestealer entering anyway, but maybe they just didn't want the GS adjacent to him either (darned if I know).
 
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Ok... let me throw another wrench into this.

Ok, so let's say a gene stealer is forced to lurk (however that works ). Can the gene stealer player place the blip on an entry point 6 or less spaces away from a marine and reveal them off the map on the same turn... or no?
 
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