Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
17 Posts

18EZ» Forums » General

Subject: Mayfair wades in. rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Bruce Murphy
Australia
Pyrmont
NSW
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Would someone from the 18EZ team like to comment on the following:

"Copyright © 2009 by Andrew/Clay Games and Mayfair Games, Inc., Skokie, IL USA. “18EZ” was designed and developed by Andrew/Clay as an original product, and is under license from Mayfair Games and Francis Tresham. No reproductions or commercial use without permission of Andrew/Clay Games. “18EZ” and “18XX” and the “18XX brand logo” are trademark properties of Francis Tresham. All rights reserved"

I'm most curious how Mayfair's announcement earlier this year of their plans to control all 18xx production are being enforced in practice.

B>
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
Francis has long requested that 18xx publishers license the 18xx core notions from him. In rather poor form, some didn't. AIUI (and I understand poorly) this is poorly enforced and generally amounts to a £100 one-time fee paid to Francis.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruce Murphy
Australia
Pyrmont
NSW
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This seems an eminently reasonable request on his part. As the subject and post suggest, however, I'm extremely curious exactly how Mayfair are getting involved.

B>
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
フィル
Australia
Ashfield
NSW
flag msg tools
designer
badge
I've got an 808 and a 303 and a record collection like the ABC
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
What exactly did Mayfair say? I thought they were just putting out some new 18XX titles, not trying to control the whole thing.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruce Murphy
Australia
Pyrmont
NSW
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sbszine wrote:
What exactly did Mayfair say? I thought they were just putting out some new 18XX titles, not trying to control the whole thing.


They talked about putting a new licensing system into place, similar to that of Steam. Like Steam, they're trying to impose this afterwards on an already-thriving game ecosystem.

B>
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
White Settlement
TX
flag msg tools
Only 6 months until the next round.
badge
A little lower and to the left, please.
Avatar
Note: I do not speak for Mayfair...

Mayfair, from what I understand, is handling the system on Francis Tresham's behalf. They are trying to bring some sense of continuity to the 18xx system, and give due recognition to Francis for having set the stage for such a vastly popular system. Reminder: I do not speak for Mayfair.

When I heard about the licensing program I wanted to make sure 18EZ was fully above-board, and I'm pleased to report that we are one of the first to be licensed. I was shocked at how accessible Mayfair is, how easy the process was, and how reasonable the terms are. Really, I would have to wonder why anyone wouldn't choose to license the system.

I won't wade into the debate of whether Francis' copyright is enforceable at this point, or a license is even necessary. What is clear to me is that we created a game using the framework created by someone else, and it's only right to give recognition to the one who made our project possible.
17 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Shaffer
United States
San Francisco
CA
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
drewdane wrote:
give due recognition to Francis for having set the stage for such a vastly popular system.


I love 18xx. I'm thrilled so many designers have chosen to work in the 18xx arena. However, this made me laugh. Describing the total number of 18xx games sold, printed, given away or otherwise distributed as "vastly popular" seems... an overstatement at best.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruce Murphy
Australia
Pyrmont
NSW
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
drewdane wrote:
Note: I do not speak for Mayfair...

Mayfair, from what I understand, is handling the system on Francis Tresham's behalf.

A collections agency. I see. Did they happen to mention any plans to retrospectively collect from Deep Thought?
Quote:
They are trying to bring some sense of continuity to the 18xx system

I'm not sure I see how exactly the 18xx system lacks continuity right now.
Quote:

and give due recognition to Francis for having set the stage for such a vastly popular system. Reminder: I do not speak for Mayfair.

Oh but you're ever so enthusiastic about their wonderful license conditions. I am, of course, curious as to what motivates that.

Still, I can't wait until Mayfair attempts to Steamify 18xx in order to make it a nice approachable mass-market game. Any guesses what they'll butcher first?

B>
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
White Settlement
TX
flag msg tools
Only 6 months until the next round.
badge
A little lower and to the left, please.
Avatar
TheCat wrote:
Describing the total number of 18xx games sold, printed, given away or otherwise distributed as "vastly popular" seems... an overstatement at best.

Have you looked at how many titles there are? That didn't happen because everyone hates the system.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
drewdane wrote:
Have you looked at how many titles there are? That didn't happen because everyone hates the system. :p


Deep Thought Games is the largest and most popular publisher of 18xx titles. Their largest selling game is 18EU. In ~4 years of printing and selling 18EU...they've sold 300 copies. None of their other games comes even close to that sales volume.

The 18xx have a great many different titles for two reasons:

1) 18xx fans tend to be rabid, and will happily play and buy (almost) anything 18xx.

2) The core 18xx framework allows for an immense range of variations and permutations for new titles/games.

Those two qualities are more than enough to support the double-digit sales-volume of the average 18xx title.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
White Settlement
TX
flag msg tools
Only 6 months until the next round.
badge
A little lower and to the left, please.
Avatar
clearclaw wrote:
1) 18xx fans tend to be rabid, and will happily play and buy (almost) anything 18xx.

Some people would call that popularity.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maaike Fest
Netherlands
Nijmegen
Gelderland
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
clearclaw wrote:
drewdane wrote:
Have you looked at how many titles there are? That didn't happen because everyone hates the system.


Deep Thought Games is the largest and most popular publisher of 18xx titles. Their largest selling game is 18EU. In ~4 years of printing and selling 18EU...they've sold 300 copies. None of their other games comes even close to that sales volume.


Yes, but the DTG waiting list may have damaged the number of sales.
Does anyone know what the numbers are on 1856 and 1870?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
White Settlement
TX
flag msg tools
Only 6 months until the next round.
badge
A little lower and to the left, please.
Avatar
maaikefest wrote:
clearclaw wrote:
drewdane wrote:
Have you looked at how many titles there are? That didn't happen because everyone hates the system.


Deep Thought Games is the largest and most popular publisher of 18xx titles. Their largest selling game is 18EU. In ~4 years of printing and selling 18EU...they've sold 300 copies. None of their other games comes even close to that sales volume.


Yes, but the DTG waiting list may have damaged the number of sales.
Does anyone know what the numbers are on 1856 and 1870?

I would suspect that may be a contributing factor. I went into 3 digit sales in a few weeks with a game that was designed by total unknowns.

I don't know how well '56 and '70 did, but I'm sure it was quite well indeed.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
maaikefest wrote:
Does anyone know what the numbers are on 1856 and 1870?


IIRC Mayfair printed 2,500 copies of each (I have the official figures noted somewhere, but seem to have misplaced the record) and has only recently managed to sell them all into the distribution channel by dumping them for a few dollars apiece some 15 years later. The cost of 1856's and 1870's large print run and poor sales were a significant factor in Mayfair Game's near bankruptcy and take-over by ICE.

Both 1860 and 1861 sold less than 600 copies world-wide.

Chris Lawson has reported that the game kits he used to make and sell had total sales volumes in the double-digit range (50+ IIRC).

Orgler, Ohley, Janich et al have not reported their sales figures that I've seen but there are several reports of 100 games sold at their launches at Essen and a dribble afterward.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Juho Snellman
Switzerland
Zurich
Zurich
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
clearclaw wrote:

Both 1860 and 1861 sold less than 600 copies world-wide.


I thought the 1861 print run was 1200, but with around 200 of those copies still held hostage by the printer.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Shaffer
United States
San Francisco
CA
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So, popular within a very small market. And popular with me. But not "vastly popular" by any stretch of the imagination. Somewhere shy of 20,000 copies combined of all titles ever printed. Ticket to Ride (the base game only) has sold over 750,000 copies.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
White Settlement
TX
flag msg tools
Only 6 months until the next round.
badge
A little lower and to the left, please.
Avatar
Fair enough... Popular like Bruce Campbell. laugh
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.