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Subject: Combined Unit Games rss

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Kevin Whitmore
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I have recently completed collecting all major parts to 1825 (not a small effort). I am now contemplating when and how to use the various combinations of units and regionals, depending upon the number of players.

Unit 1 comes with 5000 in money and 3600 company credits.
Unit 2 also comes with 5000 in money and 3600 company credits.
Unit 3 comes with 4010 money and 3621 company credits.

I prefer to play with poker chips, but have so far continued using the company credits. I am considering discontinuing using the company credits, and padding the bank instead. (I am a little torn on this. By using company credits you avoid impacting the end of the game when purchasing expensive trains.)

Francis Tresham is not explicit on how much money to use when adding regionals or additional units. I thought a thread to discuss such might have some merit.

My initial thoughts - subject to change:

Unit 1: Normally a 5000 bank. Bump up to 10,000 if using all the regionals. Bump up to 8000 if not using the regionals.

Unit 2: Normally a 5000 bank. Bump up to 8000 whether using the 2 minor companies or not.

Unit 3: Normally a 4010 bank. Bump up to 7000.

Units 1 & 2 combined: 14,000 bank.

Units 2 & 3 combined: 12,000 bank.

Units 1 - 3 combined: 18,000 bank.

In all cases, the use of company credits is discontinued. Also, I do not anticipate the use of the advanced trains or Phase 4 expansions. (I do not have them, and Tresham Games no longer produces these expansions.)

This is guesswork, and I am eager to read other's opinions. Naturally if you play with advanced trains expansion and the Phase 4 expansion your proposed bank sizes will need to be higher.

Thanks in advance for your remarks.

 
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Bruce Murphy
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A second set of poker chips?

B>
 
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Kevin Whitmore
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I have enough poker chips, thanks!
 
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Bruce Murphy
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You can never have enough poker chips

The nice thing about company credits chips in 1825 is that you need less variety of denominations and they're not handled as much.

B>
 
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J C Lawrence
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I use a second, different set of poker chips for the Company Credits in 1825, and 1860.

As for the total bank-size across combined units, this has been extensively discussed on the 18xx mailing list, and IIRC Lou Jerkich has collected the various conclusions on his 18xx web-pages.
 
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J C Lawrence
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Kevin_Whitmore wrote:
I do not anticipate the use of the advanced trains or Phase 4 expansions. (I do not have them, and Tresham Games no longer produces these expansions.)


I believe that is over-stating the case. They're certainly not currently in print, but I don't think Francis has said that he will not be making any more.
 
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Kevin Whitmore
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thepackrat wrote:
The nice thing about company credits chips in 1825 is that you need less variety of denominations and they're not handled as much.


Agreed. As I mentioned, I am a bit torn about discontinuing company credits. As I think about it, companies have two ways they affect the overall bank balance.

1. If they retain, they pull the full value of the run out of the bank. I rather doubt this has a meaningful effect on breaking the bank.

2. Companies will buy the more expensive trains late in the game. By using company credits, the bank is insulated from these swings of capital. So by discontinuing the use of company credits the endgame may be affected.

The benefit of discontinuing company credits is to simply maintain a single bank, using poker chips. It also pulls 1825 closer to player expectations built by other 18xx games we play.

Overall this is a just a contributing issue to what I was hoping to generate discussion on. How big the bank should be when playing with the various configurations of 1825. Do you have any opinion to this?
 
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Kevin Whitmore
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clearclaw wrote:
Kevin_Whitmore wrote:
I do not anticipate the use of the advanced trains or Phase 4 expansions. (I do not have them, and Tresham Games no longer produces these expansions.)


I believe that is over-stating the case. They're certainly not currently in print, but I don't think Francis has said that he will not be making any more.



I don't have the source in front of me, but Keith Thomason mentioned somewhere that only the R1, R2, R3, K5 and K7 expansions were on the "list" from Francis anymore. The implication I took away was that older expansions were no longer being produced.
 
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Kevin Whitmore
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One other facet to this:

What configurations are best for what number of players?

Unit 1: Billed for 2-5 players
Unit 2: Billed for 2-4 players
Unit 3: Billed for 2 players
Units 1 & 2: Billed for 3-7 players
Units 2 & 3: Billed for 3 - 5 players
Units 1 - 3: Billed for 4 - 9 players


What configurations seem best?

2 players: Unit 3 or Unit 2
3 players: Unit 2
4 players: Unit 2; Units 1 & 2; or Units 2 & 3
5 or 6 players: Units 1 & 2; or Units 1 - 3

I have trouble contemplating a 7 player or greater game.

Does adding R1, R2 or R3 alter the sweet spot? Do you disagree and prefer other configurations for the number of players?
 
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J C Lawrence
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Kevin_Whitmore wrote:
The benefit of discontinuing company credits is to simply maintain a single bank, using poker chips.


It also isn't too hard to simply sum the total cash across all companies as you go along and adjust the bank limits to suit. It isn't as if anyone actually plays until the bank actually breaks anyway -- the last few sets of ORs are always done on paper.

Quote:
It also pulls 1825 closer to player expectations built by other 18xx games we play.


This may not be such a gain given how violently different the 1825s are from the 1830-derived 18xx. They bear little similarity in play-styles or for the primary types of player decisions.
 
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Chris Rudram
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I think your bumps are too large. I think the company credit amounts are there for ensuring there's enough in the game, rather than a maximum.

6,000 in the bank seemed enough for 1&2 combined last time I played. 14,000 seems a lot, regardless of the companies having money from bank as well.
 
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Eugene van der Pijll
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Odinsday wrote:
I think your bumps are too large.

I agree.

Next time you play, take a note of the total company credit in all of the companies' treasury at the end of the game. That is the amount that you should increase the bank size by. I would guess this is less than 200 pounds per company, so perhaps 1000 in total for each unit.
 
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Chris Rudram
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I'd suspect this could be too small and might trigger the game end to early, as when lots of companies float you'd diminish the bank too much.

Maybe 2k would do the trick, but not sure, and I think it'd change the balance a little in the end game which ever number you picked.

You could easily, though, rake through past result on For Whom the Web Rocks (http://www.fwtwr.com/fwtwr/18xx/index.asp) to get a good idea.
 
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Eugene van der Pijll
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Odinsday wrote:
You could easily, though, rake through past result on For Whom the Web Rocks (http://www.fwtwr.com/fwtwr/18xx/index.asp) to get a good idea.

Ok... There are at the moment 7 finished 1825 games logged on that site. The total amount of company credits owned by the companies at the end of the game are:

Unit 1: 540, 570
Unit 2: 820
Unit 3: 370, 170, 430, 512

So adding more than about 500 pounds to the bank would change the length of the game.

But with only 6,500 pounds in the bank, maybe it's possible to break the bank in the second SR, by floating a large number of companies at once (which was what you meant, I suppose).

 
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Chris Rudram
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Yep, that was my point. You could probably go higher, as if you look at how much money is generated on the last round it's on the order of 1k, or probably higher. One extra round probably wouldn't destroy the game.

Personally though, I think having two separate banks works quite well... company money is open knowledge, if I recall, while player is hidden (I'm 90% sure that's explicit in the rule book). You could poker chip the player money and use the paper money for the companies and do okay... Company money doesn't move around -that- much (as if I recall dividends for non-player, sold shares don't go into the company coffers).
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Kevin Whitmore
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Thanks to all for the chatter. Seems like everyone does adhere to the company credits (and so have I each game, so far).

I will report any experiences I have with the various configurations and bank sizes. I still see this as an area where BGG could serve as a resource to new 1825 players.
 
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Michael
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Odinsday wrote:
Ycompany money is open knowledge, if I recall, while player is hidden (I'm 90% sure that's explicit in the rule book).


Both, private money and company money, are hidden.
 
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J C Lawrence
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brauerle wrote:
Both, private money and company money, are hidden.


Player and company money are perfectly trackable.
 
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Bruce Murphy
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brauerle wrote:
Odinsday wrote:
Ycompany money is open knowledge, if I recall, while player is hidden (I'm 90% sure that's explicit in the rule book).


Both, private money and company money, are hidden.


I'm fairly sure you are flying against the wind here. And the rules. In any case, adding a memory component doesn't help 18xx

b>
 
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Eugene van der Pijll
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thepackrat wrote:
brauerle wrote:
Both, private money and company money, are hidden.


I'm fairly sure you are flying against the wind here. And the rules.

Don't know about the wind, but he's correct about the rules. Rule 6.5.6.

I was surprised too.
 
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Bruce Murphy
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pijll wrote:
thepackrat wrote:
brauerle wrote:
Both, private money and company money, are hidden.


I'm fairly sure you are flying against the wind here. And the rules.

Don't know about the wind, but he's correct about the rules. Rule 6.5.6.

I was surprised too.


Well, need not be revealed isn't exactly hidden, but that goes directly against my recollection of private being not necessarily public and company being public. I'm going to have check my other Tresham games to see which one I'm confusing it with.

B>
 
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