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Subject: 10 Levy Cards rss

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Mason Louie
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Lots of reaction ideas lately. Here's some more with friends.

Avalanche
Action - Reaction
cost 4
+1 action
+2 cards
Discard down to 3 cards.
--------------
Whenever another player buys or gains a Province from the supply, you may reveal this card and trash 4 Kingdom cards of your choice.

Master of Arms
Action
cost 4
Set aside all actions in your hand and then play each of them.
-5 actions

Magician
Action
cost 5
Trash the top 3 cards of your deck.
If you do, gain a non-victory card from the supply.

Idler
Treasure - Reaction
cost 4
-3 coin
--------------
Whenever another player buys a card, you may reveal this card and draw a card.

Reprisal
Action - Reaction
cost 3
+1 action
+1 card
+1 coin
-----------
Whenever another player buys the last card in a supply pile, you may reveal this card.
If you do, buy a card immediately and discard all treasure in your hand.

Land Walker
Action - Victory
cost 4
0VP
-------
Discard all victory cards in your hand. For each card, +1 action and +1 card.

Secret Workshop
Action - Reaction
cost 5
+1 coin
+1 buy
-------
Whenever another player buys or gains a card you may reveal this card.
If you do, gain a card that costs up to 2 less than the card being bought or gained.

Trapper
Action - Reaction
cost 4
+2 coin
-----------------
When another player buys a victory card, you may reveal this card. If you do, gain a treasure card costing up to the same cost as the victory card.

Antagonist
Action - Attack - Reaction
Cost 3
Trash a treasure card.
If you do, each player gains an attack or curse card of your choice.
-----------------------
When another player plays an attack card, you may reveal this card and gain an attack card.

Imposer
Action
cost 4
Each player reveals the top card of their deck. You may play or spend one of these cards as if it were in your hand.
Place revealed cards into their respective owners' hands.

There's a bit more overlap between cards than I prefer. I'll probably nix a few going into testing.
 
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Don D.
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A lot of those cards are too powerful to be printed. Especially the one that is essentially a market for 2 coins less...

And then there is avalanche...who would ever buy that card? The draw is pretty much negated or worse by having to self-militia, making this card the ultimate self-combo killer. You should re-name that card suicidal urges.
 
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Matt Sargent
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Quote:

Magician
Action
cost 5
Trash the top 3 cards of your deck.
If you do, gain a non-victory card from the supply.


This is OP. All you have to do is play it three times and you've replaced six to nine cards of your starting deck with 1-3 gold.

If you like the card, you can't make it cost 5, as that would give an unfair advantage to a player who starts with a 5/2 split.
 
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Mason Louie
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dond80 wrote:
A lot of those cards are too powerful to be printed. Especially the one that is essentially a market for 2 coins less...

Care to explain?

dond80 wrote:
And then there is avalanche...who would ever buy that card? The draw is pretty much negated or worse by having to self-militia, making this card the ultimate self-combo killer. You should re-name that card suicidal urges.

Although a straight-up Lab is obviously more useful, I think even with the self-Militia, this is a useful Action. But the real meat of the card is the reaction part.


dond80 wrote:
This is OP. All you have to do is play it three times and you've replaced six to nine cards of your starting deck with 1-3 gold.

I'm not fully convinced that the situation you describe is over-powered, which is why I'll probably decide after I've tested it a bit. If it's too powerful, I'll raise the trash to 4 cards to increase the likelihood of money starvation or restrict it to actions. The money starvation from such a scenario ain't as bad as a Mr. Hyde induced one, but it's not something to disregard.

I'm also vacillating on whether to allow Magician to work on all cards. It's possible to pick up Provinces, but having early Provinces is usually very problematic and doubly so with a blind trasher like Magician.

dond80 wrote:
If you like the card, you can't make it cost 5, as that would give an unfair advantage to a player who starts with a 5/2 split.

I'm not convinced it's too big of an advantage for a 5/2 split either. Consider picking up a Torturer with such a deal, which strikes me as way more disruptive in early game than having a semi-purified deck laced with Gold.

I'm open to more arguments, but will likely test Magician as is.
 
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wodan wodan
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masonlouie wrote:
Lots of reaction ideas lately. Here's some more with friends.

Unfortunately, most of them are unbalanced.

masonlouie wrote:

Avalanche
Action - Reaction
cost 4
+1 action
+2 cards
Discard down to 3 cards.
--------------
Whenever another player buys or gains a Province from the supply, you may reveal this card and trash 4 Kingdom cards of your choice.

The reaction serves no purpose I can discern.

The primary effect is interesting, but I'd change it to either "Discard 2 cards" or "Discard down to 4 cards". Doing so allows it to behave like an advanced Cellar, it can't get as many cards at once, but it draws before discarding.

masonlouie wrote:

Master of Arms
Action
cost 4
Set aside all actions in your hand and then play each of them.
-5 actions

This card is insanely OP when any decent card trasher is present, but is crippling weak without it. Throne Room and Village are much more consistent, and thus better.

masonlouie wrote:

Magician
Action
cost 5
Trash the top 3 cards of your deck.
If you do, gain a non-victory card from the supply.

This card is superior to Trading Post. In a 5-2 split, it allows you to convert turn your starting deck into 3 Gold. Careful watching of what cards are in your discard and hand will keep you from accidentally trashing the Gold by mistake.

masonlouie wrote:

Idler
Treasure - Reaction
cost 4
-3 coin
--------------
Whenever another player buys a card, you may reveal this card and draw a card.

Way too strong. Not all decks need money. It also has variable value based on number of players, something to be avoided.

masonlouie wrote:

Reprisal
Action - Reaction
cost 3
+1 action
+1 card
+1 coin
-----------
Whenever another player buys the last card in a supply pile, you may reveal this card.
If you do, buy a card immediately and discard all treasure in your hand.

The basic effect is the better part of Market on the cheap, and the reaction is far too situational.

masonlouie wrote:

Land Walker
Action - Victory
cost 4
0VP
-------
Discard all victory cards in your hand. For each card, +1 action and +1 card.

Its like Scout, except weaker.

masonlouie wrote:

Secret Workshop
Action - Reaction
cost 5
+1 coin
+1 buy
-------
Whenever another player buys or gains a card you may reveal this card.
If you do, gain a card that costs up to 2 less than the card being bought or gained.

Interesting idea. You can mooch Gold off of Provinces, Action Cards off Gold, and Silver off 5 Cards. I'd suggest making the Reaction like this for balance purposes

Secret Workshop
Action - Reaction
cost 5
+2 coin
-------
Whenever another player buys or gains a card you may reveal this card.
If you do, gain a card that costs up to 2 less than the card being bought or gained and put in your hand. Then discard this card.

masonlouie wrote:

Trapper
Action - Reaction
cost 4
+2 coin
-----------------
When another player buys a victory card, you may reveal this card. If you do, gain a treasure card costing up to the same cost as the victory card.

Too strong, seeing at it gives free Gold. The Workshop was ok because it costed 5.

masonlouie wrote:

Antagonist
Action - Attack - Reaction
Cost 3
Trash a treasure card.
If you do, each player gains an attack or curse card of your choice.
-----------------------
When another player plays an attack card, you may reveal this card and gain an attack card.

Why would you have your opponent gain an attack card when you can give them a Curse? The attack is too strong given that it lets you dump treasure while hitting opponents.

masonlouie wrote:

Imposer
Action
cost 4
Each player reveals the top card of their deck. You may play or spend one of these cards as if it were in your hand.
Place revealed cards into their respective owners' hands.

Too erratic for my tastes, but ok balance wise.
 
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Mason Louie
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wodan46 wrote:
Avalanche The reaction serves no purpose I can discern.

Excellent. This tells me I have a potentially awesome subtle card if smart ppl keep looking at the reaction and think "huh?"

I'm going to leave you hanging regarding its intention, but invite you to play with it.

wodan46 wrote:
Master of Arms
This card is insanely OP when any decent card trasher is present, but is crippling weak without it. Throne Room and Village are much more consistent, and thus better.

I'm not going to worry about Chapel class trashers cause everything becomes insanely OP paired with those. Against single card trashers like my Black Chapel and your Church, it doesn't matter much simply because they're so weak. Wrt trashers, what's most interesting is how it plays with marginal trashers like Steward and Trading Post. My feeling is that -2 cards helps, but isn't powerful enough to strongly tilt the Master because you not only need to trash the cards, but also load up on lots of cool actions which usually necessitates a chunk of treasure. Asides for Magician, I can't think of any -3 trashers.

I see what you mean about weak though. Perhaps the Master should take up farming Shanty-style when there's nothing to do: You may reveal your hand and if you have no actions, +2 cards. Which also nicely deals with the inevitable 2+ Master of Arms in hand situation.

wodan46 wrote:
Magician
This card is superior to Trading Post. In a 5-2 split, it allows you to convert turn your starting deck into 3 Gold. Careful watching of what cards are in your discard and hand will keep you from accidentally trashing the Gold by mistake.

noon had a more convincing argument for over-poweredness. Deck tending is certainly possible with Magician, but I'm not too concerned about it simply because it's a losing proposition: most of the time, the card deals won't be in your favor and you'll have to wait, maybe long enough for a cycle deck to fly, especially with what I play with nowadays. And then there's the additional balancer: what do you buy while purifying with Magician and what does that do to the desire to replay Magician. At each play of the Magician, you do gain a good card, but at the risk of geometrically losing something important which tends to mute successive plays as your deck purifies, which means waiting for 3 Gold alignment will take a long time usually.

What I'd like Magician to be is an interesting midgame switcheroo play ("now you see it, now you don't") where you have enough disposable cards in your deck to make it worth it, but sufficiently debilitating if played too early like Printer. Printer is also a good example of a very powerful looking card that must be experienced to understand its weaknesses. theatog moaned a lot about cards like it, but it was a real nothingburger to see it in play; it's actually up for a redo because it's unloved. Magician is more dramatic than Printer, but it has similar probability texture properties, so I'm not so easily convinced about OPness. The overpower case is possible, but unlikely and less so than a 5-2 split I reckon.

wodan46 wrote:
Idler
Way too strong. Not all decks need money. It also has variable value based on number of players, something to be avoided.

Decks that don't need treasure usually aren't scary. They're hard to stop once they get rolling, but that's the whole point of this set of cards: how to thwart a cycle deck without resorting to the lame action counterspell sort of thing ppl keep reinventing here and be generally useful.

I know Idler is very strong, but what I want to know is how strong and then come up with a clever balance. Or I can punt and make it into a sporadic Cellar: draw a card, discard a card.

wodan46 wrote:
Reprisal
The basic effect is the better part of Market on the cheap, and the reaction is far too situational.

This one is up for raising its cost, but I'm in the "Market is overpriced" camp myself.

As far as the "too situational" business, this happens all the time in the games I play. Someone buys the last Province and there's a tie. Game balance is great, but frequent ties are most unsatisfying. It is possible to overdo balance. This card is intended to be bought in scads for lategame which is why it's cheap. That suggests weakening the ability to something like: +1 action, +1 card. Discard a card. If you do, +1 coin. Or maybe combining a cantrip with Secret Chamber's action.

wodan46 wrote:
Land Walker
Its like Scout, except weaker.

Strange, I would've guessed you'd think it's too strong. The way I see it, it's a conditional Village + Cellar because you get card replacement and extra actions. I don't see the resemblance to Scout at all since your hand never increases in size. If you think it's too weak, maybe I should make it a cantrip too.

wodan46 wrote:
Secret Workshop
Interesting idea. You can mooch Gold off of Provinces, Action Cards off Gold, and Silver off 5 Cards. I'd suggest making the Reaction like this for balance purposes

Secret Workshop
Action - Reaction
cost 5
+2 coin
-------
Whenever another player buys or gains a card you may reveal this card.
If you do, gain a card that costs up to 2 less than the card being bought or gained and put in your hand. Then discard this card.

I'm glad you like it. Your version is pretty interesting for multiplayer games because it accelerates development in lieu of the quick VP grubbing 5-6 player games turn into. I'm a little worried about 2-3 player games wrt acceleration, but it's probably OK because the card gets out late and relies on others having developed decks for max power. It's worth a shot.

wodan46 wrote:
Trapper
Too strong, seeing at it gives free Gold. The Workshop was ok because it costed 5.

I don't think the free Gold is too troublesome because early Provinces don't come up very often. It might be an issue for Harem and Nobles, but I'm not that concerned about those either.

I feel I should point out that if action decks take a long time to get going, interesting reaction decks take even longer because they're so dependent on others. So I'm less worried about very powerful effects simply because they can only really happen at the earliest during midgame. The bigger issue in my mind is coming up with a suitably useful action ability to warrant buying the card so that you have enough of the card to give the reaction teeth when the time comes.

In some ways, an interesting reaction must be have the power of a good action squared. I rarely bother buying Moats anymore, even if there are Witches, because I don't want more card cloggage and there are usually better cards to buy.

wodan46 wrote:
Antagonist
Why would you have your opponent gain an attack card when you can give them a Curse? The attack is too strong given that it lets you dump treasure while hitting opponents.

Because if you give your opponent a weaksauce attack like Spy or Saboteur, you can potentially gain more attack cards like Antagonist or Witch. And he'd be pretty cool with your Fortress!

This card makes a lot of texture and the interactive kind at that, but I feel that all the texture pieces aren't properly motivated. Maybe it would be better if the attack were to give each player an attack and a curse and if so, +3 coin.

wodan46 wrote:
Imposer
Too erratic for my tastes, but ok balance wise.

Cool.
 
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wodan wodan
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masonlouie wrote:
wodan46 wrote:
Avalanche The reaction serves no purpose I can discern.

Excellent. This tells me I have a potentially awesome subtle card if smart ppl keep looking at the reaction and think "huh?"

I'm going to leave you hanging regarding its intention, but invite you to play with it.

It allows you to Chapel whenever someone gains a Province. By the time people are gaining Provinces, you have no reason to be using Chapel. The primary effect is extremely weak except in a deck with significant amounts of both Gold and VP cards.

masonlouie wrote:

Master of Arms

Here's a possible variant that would allow for interesting options:

Master of Arms
Action
cost 4

You play any action for free, so long as you haven't played that action before on this turn. -5 Actions.


masonlouie wrote:

noon had a more convincing argument for over-poweredness. Deck tending is certainly possible with Magician, but I'm not too concerned about it simply because it's a losing proposition: most of the time, the card deals won't be in your favor and you'll have to wait, maybe long enough for a cycle deck to fly, especially with what I play with nowadays. And then there's the additional balancer: what do you buy while purifying with Magician and what does that do to the desire to replay Magician. At each play of the Magician, you do gain a good card, but at the risk of geometrically losing something important which tends to mute successive plays as your deck purifies, which means waiting for 3 Gold alignment will take a long time usually.


Initial Round: Buy Magician only
First Cycle: Deck becomes 1 Magician, 1 Gold, 7 Cards
Second Cycle: Deck becomes either 1 Magician, 1 Gold, 5 Cards, or 1 Magician, 2 Gold, 4 Cards. If former, buy a Copper, if latter end risky Magician use and take a Silver/Gold
Third Cycle: Deck becomes either 1 Magician, 2 Gold, 1 Silver/Gold, 3 Cards, or 1 Magician, 1 Gold, 1 Silver/Copper, 4 Cards (you buy a Copper or Silver)

Results
By end of Third Cycle:
A. 1 Magician, 2 Gold, 1 Silver/Gold, 4 Cards
B. 1 Magician, 2 Gold, 1 Silver/Gold, 3 Cards
C. 1 Magician, 1 Gold, 1 Copper/Silver, 4 Cards

Not sure of the probabilities, but all of those are pretty good unless you got stuck with C, a Copper, and 3 Estates.

masonlouie wrote:

Decks that don't need treasure usually aren't scary. They're hard to stop once they get rolling, but that's the whole point of this set of cards: how to thwart a cycle deck without resorting to the lame action counterspell sort of thing ppl keep reinventing here and be generally useful.

I know Idler is very strong, but what I want to know is how strong and then come up with a clever balance. Or I can punt and make it into a sporadic Cellar: draw a card, discard a card.

Decreasing it to Cellar would mean it no longer has to be negative money wise. Doing so means it at best refines your hand, and leaves you vulnerable to attack still.

masonlouie wrote:

wodan46 wrote:
Reprisal
The basic effect is the better part of Market on the cheap, and the reaction is far too situational.

This one is up for raising its cost, but I'm in the "Market is overpriced" camp myself.

Market is one of the most powerful cards in the game, on par with Lab.

Perhaps +1/2 Money rounded up?

masonlouie wrote:

wodan46 wrote:
Land Walker
Its like Scout, except weaker.

Strange, I would've guessed you'd think it's too strong. The way I see it, it's a conditional Village + Cellar because you get card replacement and extra actions.

Missed the extra actions part. Is ok then.

masonlouie wrote:

wodan46 wrote:
Trapper
Too strong, seeing at it gives free Gold. The Workshop was ok because it costed 5.

I don't think the free Gold is too troublesome because early Provinces don't come up very often. It might be an issue for Harem and Nobles, but I'm not that concerned about those either.

I guess.

masonlouie wrote:

Because if you give your opponent a weaksauce attack like Spy or Saboteur, you can potentially gain more attack cards like Antagonist or Witch. And he'd be pretty cool with your Fortress!

Curse is still better
 
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Ian Kelly
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masonlouie wrote:
Avalanche
Action - Reaction
cost 4
+1 action
+2 cards
Discard down to 3 cards.
--------------
Whenever another player buys or gains a Province from the supply, you may reveal this card and trash 4 Kingdom cards of your choice.


Am I correct in understanding that the trashed cards need not be in your hand?
 
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masonlouie wrote:
Idler
Treasure - Reaction
cost 4
-3 coin
--------------
Whenever another player buys a card, you may reveal this card and draw a card.


What's the purpose of giving this -3 coin? You're not required to play all the Treasure cards in your hand, so whenever anybody had this they simply wouldn't play it.
 
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Mason Louie
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wodan46 wrote:
It allows you to Chapel whenever someone gains a Province. By the time people are gaining Provinces, you have no reason to be using Chapel. The primary effect is extremely weak except in a deck with significant amounts of both Gold and VP cards.
Peristarkawan wrote:
[Avalanche] Am I correct in understanding that the trashed cards need not be in your hand?

Yes Peris, you are correct. With wodan's comment, this strongly suggests the card text is too vague and ppl are saying "huh?" because of semantics rather than gameplay dynamics.

Let's try that again, shall we?

Avalanche
Action - Reaction
cost 4
+1 action
+2 cards
Discard down to 3 cards.
--------------
Whenever another player buys or gains a Province from the supply, you may reveal this card and trash 4 Kingdom cards from the supply.

Peristarkawan wrote:
What's the purpose of giving this -3 coin? You're not required to play all the Treasure cards in your hand, so whenever anybody had this they simply wouldn't play it.

Unfortunately, you're right. I wanted to make an interesting anti-treasure, but it's purely optional to play treasure, so -3 coin is moot.

How about this:

Idler
Treasure - Reaction
cost 4
+1 coin
--------------
Whenever another player buys a card, you may reveal this card. If you do, draw a card and discard 2 treasure cards.


wodan46 wrote:
Here's a possible variant that would allow for interesting options:

Master of Arms
Action
cost 4

You play any action for free, so long as you haven't played that action before on this turn. -5 Actions.

Does this only allow one action to be played? I'm confused by the "so long as you haven't played that action before on this turn" because played actions are set aside and can't be replayed (so far). Or do you mean an action with the same name? What interesting options does your variation allow?

The idea that I'm shooting at with Master of Arms is to play all the actions in hand, but prohibit (usually) a big long cycle, which would allow terminal actions to be played and thought about in novel ways.

wodan46 wrote:
Initial Round: Buy Magician only
First Cycle: Deck becomes 1 Magician, 1 Gold, 7 Cards
Second Cycle: Deck becomes either 1 Magician, 1 Gold, 5 Cards, or 1 Magician, 2 Gold, 4 Cards. If former, buy a Copper, if latter end risky Magician use and take a Silver/Gold
Third Cycle: Deck becomes either 1 Magician, 2 Gold, 1 Silver/Gold, 3 Cards, or 1 Magician, 1 Gold, 1 Silver/Copper, 4 Cards (you buy a Copper or Silver)

Results
By end of Third Cycle:
A. 1 Magician, 2 Gold, 1 Silver/Gold, 4 Cards
B. 1 Magician, 2 Gold, 1 Silver/Gold, 3 Cards
C. 1 Magician, 1 Gold, 1 Copper/Silver, 4 Cards

Not sure of the probabilities, but all of those are pretty good unless you got stuck with C, a Copper, and 3 Estates.

I'm confused by your Silver/Gold & Silver/Copper notation, but let's try and finish your exercise with probabilities since you've gone to the trouble.

Unfortunately it's been ages since I took Stat. I still understand the basis, but I also recall that the subtleties were pretty important. Nonetheless, I'll take a stab at analysis.

Each line has the Gold from Magician branches.
first numeral = how many identical unmarked configurations with the proceding cards can happen (if the cards in question are in the "back" of the config stack)
M = Magician
w = weak starting card (either an Estate or a Copper)
G = Gold

First Cycle: 1 MGwww wwwww
Second Cycle: 3 MGwww www 6 MGGww www
Third Cycle: 3 MGwww w 4 MGGww w 2 MGwww w 3 MGGww w 2 MGGGw w
----------------------------------------------------------------------
totals 5 MGwww w 7 MGGww w 2 MGGGw w = 14


I don't know if the counts are right, but the logic of the ratios looks right. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Which looks like 3 Golds occurs 1/7 of the time (2 outcomes of 14). I don't think this covers real play either because of cycle boundary conditions (like the Magician is in the last 5 cards of a cycle which would eat cards from the next cycle). But I think such boundary conditions would hamper the Magician, so I guess that 1/7 for 3 Gold is a best case scenario.

Let's see how it looks for your add a Silver (also denoted with a "w"). I'm guessing you'd only add a Copper if you had less than 3 coin in hand and simply wanted fodder for the Magician.

Second Cycle: 3 MGwww www 6 MGGww www
buy weak 3 MGwww wwww 6 MGGww www
Third Cycle: 3 MGwww ww 5 MGGww ww 2 MGwww w 3 MGGww w 2 MGGGw w


This case helps the 2 Gold outcome, but doesn't seem to affect the 3 Gold outcome.

It looks like, at optimal draws, you can get the 3 Gold case in 6 turns. That's roughly as fast as Chapel class cards with ideal draws, but it can only happen for less than 1/7 of the time. Not something I'm very worried about.

OTOH 2 Gold around turn 7-8 with a small deck for half the time may be a bigger problem. The setup and timing don't sound that scary, but I have no idea how reasonable players do at this time. My guess is they have more deck development at this point, but also have more clutter. Will definitely need to see how -3 blind trash works live.

wodan46 wrote:
[Idler] Decreasing it to Cellar would mean it no longer has to be negative money wise. Doing so means it at best refines your hand, and leaves you vulnerable to attack still.

Right. Most of these reactions don't actually react to attacks with the exception of Antagonist. And none of them mute attacks. What I'm exploring here are other means of interaction between players than attacks in a way that's a little bit like Race for the Galaxy though moreso.

The problem with decreasing the reaction to Cellar though is that as good as Cellar is, I think it's still a little too weak to base off of buys (what if there are Ironworks and such in play?).

wodan46 wrote:
Reprisal
Market is one of the most powerful cards in the game, on par with Lab.

Perhaps +1/2 Money rounded up?

I feel Market is in the middle for 5 costs.

But if you think the bonus ought to be +1.5 coin. That suggests making it +1 coin, +1 card, for the variable card to decide it.

wodan46 wrote:
masonlouie wrote:

wodan46 wrote:
Land Walker
Its like Scout, except weaker.

Strange, I would've guessed you'd think it's too strong. The way I see it, it's a conditional Village + Cellar because you get card replacement and extra actions.

Missed the extra actions part. Is ok then.


I should probably reword this one too since it's also interpretable in a couple of ways.

Land Walker
Action - Victory
cost 4
0VP
-------
Discard all victory cards in your hand. For each discard, +1 action and +1 card.

wodan46 wrote:
masonlouie wrote:

I don't think the free Gold is too troublesome because early Provinces don't come up very often. It might be an issue for Harem and Nobles, but I'm not that concerned about those either.

I guess.

Yeah, I'm not so thrilled by Trapper either on reflection. Late game treasure is necessary but even more boring than early game treasure.

wodan46 wrote:
masonlouie wrote:

Because if you give your opponent a weaksauce attack like Spy or Saboteur, you can potentially gain more attack cards like Antagonist or Witch. And he'd be pretty cool with your Fortress!

Curse is still better
[/q]
As much as I love dealing out Curses, I'd like Antagonist to encourage very interactive games. Much moreso that what's currently possible. If I push Curses, it mutes interplay. Things become more interesting when I allow curse types to get passed out because I have a variety of interesting curse types now in a ratio which makes things viable.


 
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masonlouie wrote:

Avalanche
Action - Reaction
cost 4
+1 action
+2 cards
Discard down to 3 cards.
--------------
Whenever another player buys or gains a Province from the supply, you may reveal this card and trash 4 Kingdom cards from the supply.

Ah. In that case its broken. Use it on the Province deck when you are ahead.

masonlouie wrote:

How about this:

Idler
Treasure - Reaction
cost 4
+1 coin
--------------
Whenever another player buys a card, you may reveal this card. If you do, draw a card and discard 2 treasure cards.

I think there are better ways of making cards that play off opponent's decks.

Here's a sample of what I would do, inspired by your ideas.

Tax Collector[3][Kingdom][Reaction]: +2 Money. Reaction(When an opponent resolves an action beyond the first for a turn, you may discard Tax Collector. If you do, gain a Silver and put it in your hand. If it is their fourth action, gain a Gold instead.)

Bazaar[4][Kingdom][Reaction]: +1 Card, +1 Buy. Reaction(When an opponent buys or gains a second card in a turn, you may discard Bazaar. If you do, +2 Cards)

Senator[5][VP][Reaction]: 2 VP. Reaction(When an opponent buys a card, you may discard Senator. If you do, gain a card costing up to 2 less than the bought card and put it in your hand)

Tax Collector punishes action chains, Bazaar punishes rapid deck growth, and Senator leeches off strong decks.

masonlouie wrote:

wodan46 wrote:
Here's a possible variant that would allow for interesting options:
Master of Arms
Action
cost 4
You play any action for free, so long as you haven't played that action before on this turn. -5 Actions.

Does this only allow one action to be played? I'm confused by the "so long as you haven't played that action before on this turn" because played actions are set aside and can't be replayed (so far). Or do you mean an action with the same name? What interesting options does your variation allow?

Same name. Hence, you could go Master of Arms, Smithy, Torturer, Council Room, but you couldn't go Master of Arms, Smithy, Smithy. Hence the interesting variations, for it allows action chains, so long as every link in the chain is different.

masonlouie wrote:

The idea that I'm shooting at with Master of Arms is to play all the actions in hand, but prohibit (usually) a big long cycle, which would allow terminal actions to be played and thought about in novel ways.

The problem is that's way too weak. You'd need at least 2 terminal actions in your hand to gain any use out of it, doing so would render the rest of your hand weak unless you get good card draw, and Throne Room would be better regardless.

masonlouie wrote:

Let's see how it looks for your add a Silver (also denoted with a "w"). I'm guessing you'd only add a Copper if you had less than 3 coin in hand and simply wanted fodder for the Magician.

Second Cycle: 3 MGwww www 6 MGGww www
buy weak 3 MGwww wwww 6 MGGww www
Third Cycle: 3 MGwww ww 5 MGGww ww 2 MGwww w 3 MGGww w 2 MGGGw w


This case helps the 2 Gold outcome, but doesn't seem to affect the 3 Gold outcome.

It looks like, at optimal draws, you can get the 3 Gold case in 6 turns. That's roughly as fast as Chapel class cards with ideal draws,

Given that chapel is extremely close to OP, saying that Magician's ideal draw matches Chapel's ideal draw in strength is a bad sign. Getting 2 Gold 2/3s of the time, 3 Gold 2/15s of the time, and at least a Gold and shrunken deck 3/15s of the time is very strong.

masonlouie wrote:

wodan46 wrote:
Reprisal
Market is one of the most powerful cards in the game, on par with Lab.

Perhaps +1/2 Money rounded up?

I feel Market is in the middle for 5 costs.

But if you think the bonus ought to be +1.5 coin. That suggests making it +1 coin, +1 card, for the variable card to decide it.

I said +0.5, not +1.5, as in 1/2 of a Market
 
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wodan46 wrote:
masonlouie wrote:

Avalanche
Action - Reaction
cost 4
+1 action
+2 cards
Discard down to 3 cards.
--------------
Whenever another player buys or gains a Province from the supply, you may reveal this card and trash 4 Kingdom cards from the supply.

Ah. In that case its broken. Use it on the Province deck when you are ahead.


The Kingdom cards are the 10 variable card piles, so Provinces can't be trashed with Avalanche. 4 cards does seem a bit excessive, though, since whichever piles you do pick to deplete will likely already be at least half gone. This card could easily end the game the third or fourth time it's drawn, especially in a 4-player game.
 
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I get it now. Every time a Province gets bought, you can empty 40% of a kingdom pile. That devalues Provinces quite a bit.
 
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wodan46 wrote:
I think there are better ways of making cards that play off opponent's decks.

Here's a sample of what I would do, inspired by your ideas.

Tax Collector[3][Kingdom][Reaction]: +2 Money. Reaction(When an opponent resolves an action beyond the first for a turn, you may discard Tax Collector. If you do, gain a Silver and put it in your hand. If it is their fourth action, gain a Gold instead.)

Bazaar[4][Kingdom][Reaction]: +1 Card, +1 Buy. Reaction(When an opponent buys or gains a second card in a turn, you may discard Bazaar. If you do, +2 Cards)

Senator[5][VP][Reaction]: 2 VP. Reaction(When an opponent buys a card, you may discard Senator. If you do, gain a card costing up to 2 less than the bought card and put it in your hand)

Tax Collector punishes action chains, Bazaar punishes rapid deck growth, and Senator leeches off strong decks.

I fully expect there to be many more ways of playing off opponents' decks. But the reactions I present here are some first tries. I still need to figure out a lot of things about this sort of card before I get to the really off-the-wall ideas I imagine, which means I gotta make them and test them. But one thing is that I'm not trying to punish decks per se. Instead find interesting places to do new things.

That said, Senator's the most interesting of your 3 ideas because it's generally useful, though I do like Bazaar. One difficulty in constructing good reactions is to find things which happen often enough in which to trigger on. So Tax Collector is not useful for most of the time (even if there are strong cycle cards available).

wodan46 wrote:
Master of Arms
Same name. Hence, you could go Master of Arms, Smithy, Torturer, Council Room, but you couldn't go Master of Arms, Smithy, Smithy. Hence the interesting variations, for it allows action chains, so long as every link in the chain is different.

Although I do like encouraging the use of more/all of the available Kingdom cards, I don't think your version helps that too much.

But thinking about it more, I don't like any version of the Master of Arms so far because he doesn't kick ass in any of them; he's basically a glorified Village. With a name like that, it's got to be a cool card. Two more ideas:

Master of Arms
Action
cost 5
Draw 3 cards.
Discard all non-actions.
Set aside all actions in your hand and then play each of them.
-5 Actions.

Master of Arms
Action
cost 5
Set aside all actions in your hand and then play each of them.
-5 Actions.
Reveal your hand. Gain an action card equal to or less than the amount of coin from treasure in hand.

wodan46 wrote:
Given that chapel is extremely close to OP, saying that Magician's ideal draw matches Chapel's ideal draw in strength is a bad sign. Getting 2 Gold 2/3s of the time, 3 Gold 2/15s of the time, and at least a Gold and shrunken deck 3/15s of the time is very strong.

There, fixed it for ya.

I'm OK with making Chapel class cards as long as they're more interesting, but the differences between Magician and Chapel are speed and certainty. You only get 2 Gold half (8/15th) of the time, which is OK. The Chapel-like case is a best case scenario which I'd guess happens much less frequently than 1/7th, maybe 1/20 or less.

However, in spite of all this, I think Magician is worthwhile for the interesting things I imagine it used for during midgame. Gotta see it played to weigh its speed boost vs its cool implications though.

Peristarkawan wrote:
The Kingdom cards are the 10 variable card piles, so Provinces can't be trashed with Avalanche. 4 cards does seem a bit excessive, though, since whichever piles you do pick to deplete will likely already be at least half gone. This card could easily end the game the third or fourth time it's drawn, especially in a 4-player game.

All this is true, but the kicker is that it triggers as a conditional reaction. Hence my feeling that reactions of this sort have to be much more powerful than standard actions.

There is one wrinkle though about your game ending observation though: it's not the person buying the Province making the call. I figure this will force some major late strategy changes if played well.

wodan46 wrote:
[Avalanche]I get it now. Every time a Province gets bought, you can empty 40% of a kingdom pile. That devalues Provinces quite a bit.

I don't understand how Avalanche devalues a Province. Can you explain? My guess is that it usually makes them more valuable because Avalanche promotes the 3 pile end rule.
 
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masonlouie wrote:
That said, Senator's the most interesting of your 3 ideas because it's generally useful, though I do like Bazaar. One difficulty in constructing good reactions is to find things which happen often enough in which to trigger on. So Tax Collector is not useful for most of the time (even if there are strong cycle cards available).

I think you under-estimate Tax Collector. So long as +1 Action cards are present, Tax Collector allows you to gain Silver without even using it as an action, in addition to being a virtual Silver itself. If you have multiple Collectors in your hand, you can obtain multiple Silvers. That alone is a useful enough power, at least as good as the Woodcutter and Chancellor powers.

It gets more interesting when action chains are available, something that happens very often, and is usually a good idea. If you gain the Silver, it replaces the Tax Collector in your hand, so even if the opponent plays more cards, you won't be able to gain Gold. As for your opponent, he has no way of knowing if you have one or more Tax Collectors in your hand, and as such has to be cautious when doing action chains.

masonlouie wrote:

I don't understand how Avalanche devalues a Province. Can you explain? My guess is that it usually makes them more valuable because Avalanche promotes the 3 pile end rule.

Decks oriented towards buying Provinces take a while to build up steam and start accumulating them. Gardens/Duke decks obtain the VP cards much earlier. Avalanche causes the game to end before the Province deck is emptied, which decreases the total points earned by the Province oriented strategies.
 
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Stop fighting for Magician already. People here raises valid concern and the concern is simple: the card costing 5 is giving unconditional gold when used.

Trashing 3 cards from your deck is not a big trade off espeically it could be easily abused in early game. Any combination of 3 cost or less cards for a gold is usually a good deal, even if you have to trade it from your hand (which is a bigger trade off compared to cards from your deck because it hurts one of your turns of limited number)

Being straight up stronger than Mine and Trading post also makes it not worthwhile to introduce to the original pool.



But in general, regardless of OP or not, i find this set more refined and less super-big gesture than what you usually design. In other words, they are more closer to those satire cards you put in the end of reponses to my comments lol

 
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