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Subject: Copper shuts down the Family Still on a roll of 5? rss

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James Webb
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I'm looking for a quick clarifiction on the rules.

The rules say that the Copper shuts down a family still if a 5 is rolled during the production phase. Originally I read this as '5+' (so if a 5 or a 6 is rolled on a family still die nothing is produced), but I was re-reading the rules and it seems very specific about it being a '5' and just a '5'. This seems to be the case on the player mat as well.

So, is the still shut down on a roll of '5' or a roll of '5 or 6'? The wording of the rules really seems to imply the former, but that's a very arbitrary and nonsensical thing.

Any thoughts?
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Wally Jones
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If someone rolls a 5 the cops bust in and stop their production for that turn.

A 5 and only a 5.

Which is kind of funny because most players have a problem with the influence markers.
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Sean Shaw
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I could have sworn it was a 5 OR a 6...so 5+. That's how we've played it.
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Don Beyer
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It is 5 and only 5.

I later asked Ray how we ever settled on "5" (it was his idea to use 5) to which he responded... "ummm... it looked like an X?"

So there you go.

Don
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James Webb
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Excellent. Thanks for the clarification.
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Sean Shaw
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Wow, well, thanks...we've been playing it wrong. That makes it a lot harder for the cop to stop the still...I knew I could have won the game last time! (I decided to up my production at the very beginning of the game, and no one else did, so I constantly had the copper on me every other turn about for the first 6 or 7 turns...they all made remotes (which I also had...and should have upgraded instead) which they used instead. I did manage to destroy one with a card...but there were four players...
 
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Eric Schiedler
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The fact that the copper shuts the family still down on any (5) has some interesting effects. First, it means that the player can "outroll" the copper. If you get a 6, you have a big production roll that you get to use to make money while the copper does not shut you down.

If the copper hit you on a 6, then the best production roll that turn is a 5.

Notice that on 3 dice you can roll and 18 and still sell the whiskey. If the copper hit on a 6, the best roll you could have is a 15.

If you roll one die, the average is 3.5.

If you lose production on a 5, the average is 2.67.

If you lose production on a 6, the average is 2.50.

On 3 dice, you get an extra 0.50 production by having the copper hit on a 5.

Over the course of 7 turns (that the copper might disrupt production) that is an extra 3.5 in income. Not a lot, but leaves the door open for a hot roll.
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TC Petty III
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This rule is one that I've never fully understood. Sure, it creates danger and balance, but it is too heavily weighted towards extreme luck. I've now seen two games where a person who was in contention for the top spot rolled a five on the last turn, had no production and lost the game. Not fun. I completely dislike game mechanics that are this harsh, because it causes a player to "sit out" a round. It is essentially a "LOSE A TURN" card. (I realize that you can counter it somewhat by having controlling interest in a speakeasy, but that's not enough)

My recommendation is that the Copper is "watching" instead. If a player with the Copper rolls 5+ on a die, then that one die roll is confiscated unless the player is willing to pay the Copper off (1G per barrel, all or nothing). This way it balances without unfairly destroying a player's chance to win.
 
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Don Beyer
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Remote Stills.
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Flying Arrow
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TheCrippledWerewolf wrote:
Sure, it creates danger and balance, but it is too heavily weighted towards extreme luck.


If someone has the copper, it's because they got a good (possibly great) roll the previous round. You can't get hit by the copper two rounds in a row, since the copper goes to the person who produces the most and if the copper hits you that means you produce zero so the copper will go to someone else. And as Don mentioned, the risk of getting hit by the copper can be reduced by buying remote stills. Although personally, I think the risk of getting the remote still destroyed by an opponent is greater than the copper.

I think all those put together make it pretty balanced already.
 
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Ok, new to the game and reading rules forum here.

From what I read on the rules, it has nothing to do with the "total" production... the rules I have say:

If any ONE of the dice in your family still is a 5, then you don't produce at all. So, if you roll 4,4,4,4 you still produce... if you roll, 1, 4, 5, 6 since ONE of your dices was a 5 your don't product at the family still.

Is that correct?

BOb
 
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Michael Tyree
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I thought the copper could still sit on you multiple turns because you still rolled a high number, would have to re-read that rule. To clarify, I thought it applied to the roll, not production.

And yes, remote stills are crucial for this. I've been crushed by being forced to produce out of the family still while others had the bulk of their hooch produced off site.
 
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Michael Tyree
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pilotbob wrote:
Ok, new to the game and reading rules forum here.

From what I read on the rules, it has nothing to do with the "total" production... the rules I have say:

If any ONE of the dice in your family still is a 5, then you don't produce at all. So, if you roll 4,4,4,4 you still produce... if you roll, 1, 4, 5, 6 since ONE of your dices was a 5 your don't product at the family still.

Is that correct?

BOb


Yes, if any die rolled for the family still is a '5' while the copper is watching you, all production from that still fails for that turn.
 
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Bob Schrempp
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pilotbob wrote:
Ok, new to the game and reading rules forum here.

From what I read on the rules, it has nothing to do with the "total" production... the rules I have say:

If any ONE of the dice in your family still is a 5, then you don't produce at all. So, if you roll 4,4,4,4 you still produce... if you roll, 1, 4, 5, 6 since ONE of your dices was a 5 your don't product at the family still.

Is that correct?

BOb


Correct, one five in the home still results in zero production in the home still for that turn. The Copper goes to the home still that produces the most for the turn. Since you produce ZERO he moves off of you for the next turn.
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