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Subject: How jamming and CP's work in overwatch rss

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Branko K.
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I know there are MANY threads on this, and I think I got it all nailed down, so instead of asking a question I'll just write down a scenario which I *think* shows the correct usage, so please just tell me if it's ok or not.

Marine is on overwatch, 3 CPs left.

1) Genestealer enters LOS (let's say 4 tiles away).
2) Marine shoots (OW action). 3-2. Misses.
3) Genestealer draws closer.
4) Marine shoots (OW action). 4-4. Misses & jams.
5) Genestealer draws closer.
6) Marine spends 1CP to unjam. Sustained bonus lost.
7) Genestealer draws closer yet.
8) Marine shoots (OW action). 5-2.
9) Genestealer draws near marine.
10) Instead of OW shot, Marine spends 2CPs to step backward and shoot. 6-4. Genestealer is dead.

So, everything kosher?


Edit: Fixed according to comments and apparently correct algorithm from this thread.
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Jon Day
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)
Unjamming your gun places you back into overwatch.
In overwatch you have to take a shot at the steeler.

So no - the stealer gets to rip you apart zombie
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Branko K.
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)
Marine IS still in overwatch after the unjam (see 8).
 
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Wayne O'Keeffe
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)
It seems fine to me so I hope it's right.
 
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Jorge Arroyo
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)
From the preliminary GW answers, you can't both take the ow shot and take an action spending cps. You can spend cps to move back and shoot before the ow shot, breaking ow.
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Wayne O'Keeffe
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)
maka wrote:
From the preliminary GW answers, you can't both take the ow shot and take an action spending cps. You can spend cps to move back and shoot before the ow shot, breaking ow.


Does that then mean in the scenario above, the 2 CP's would have needed to be spent after step 6 (but when he unjams it goes straight to OW) or straight after an OW shot to then break OW?

Confussed and my head hurts soblue
 
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John "Omega" Williams
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)
In step 8. I assume you mean you spent 2 cp to step back. The genestealer moved again and you got your overwatch shot that killed it?
 
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Jon Day
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)
Shooting in overwatch isn't optional - he has to do it therefore using up his allowed action.
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Rob Corn
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)
jond wrote:
Shooting in overwatch isn't optional - he has to do it therefore using up his allowed action.

See this, this, and this.

You can spend CPs on a Space Marine in overwatch. Actually, you can spend CPs on any one Space Marine after a Space Marine witnesses a Genestealer action.

If you see a Genestealer take an action, you must immediately decide whether to take a CP action or not. If you want to spend CPs, you can spend them on any one Space Marine you want before any other actions like overwatch shots are taken.

The Space Marine that took a CP action cannot take another action for this Genestealer action (the only example I can think of here is unjamming -- if you spend a CP to unjam, you cannot shoot until the Genestealer takes another action).

If the Space Marine that took a CP action was on overwatch, the overwatch is lost unless the CP was spent unjamming. The overwatch shot is not taken in this case, the CP action has priority.

Remember sustained fire is lost if a model other than the target takes an action. So if a Genestealer is advancing on your overwatch Space Marine, and you've been shooting a couple of times, if you have a different Space Marine take an action, your overwatch Space Marine loses his sustained fire.
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Jorge Arroyo
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)
DirtyDubs wrote:
maka wrote:
From the preliminary GW answers, you can't both take the ow shot and take an action spending cps. You can spend cps to move back and shoot before the ow shot, breaking ow.


Does that then mean in the scenario above, the 2 CP's would have needed to be spent after step 6 (but when he unjams it goes straight to OW) or straight after an OW shot to then break OW?

Confussed and my head hurts soblue


It basically means, step 8 is wrong. You can't spend CPs on a marine that just shot in OW. Either that marine can spend CPs to go back and shoot (losing OW) or he can stay in OW and shoot normally.
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Adam Ruzzo
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)
Marine is on overwatch, 3 CPs left.

1) Genestealer enters LOS (let's say 4 tiles away).
2) Marine shoots (OW action). 3-2. Misses.
3) Genestealer draws closer.
4) Marine shoots (OW action). 4-4. Misses & jams.
5) Genestealer draws closer.
6) Marine spends 1CP to unjam.
7) Genestealer draws closer yet. He is right on the marine now.

8a) Marine shoots (OW action). 3-2. Misses. He CAN NOT spend 2CPs to step backward and shoot. Genestealer is on top of him in melee

OR

8b) Instead of shooting overwatch, the marine player can spend 2CPs to step backwards (and cancel overwatch). He shoots because marine's may fire as PART of a move action. 5-3. Misses (no sustained fire).
9) The Genestealer moves up again.
10) The marine may fire for 1 CP at sustained fire 5-5. Hits the GS and kills him. He is no longer on overwatch (though if you'd had another 2 CP left, you could put him back in overwatch).


So at step 8 you choose between a single overwatch shot at 55% chance of hit (sustained fire) or step back and get a 30% shot and another 55% shot for 3 CPs
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Jeremy Yoder
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)

This all looks good to me except for this part...

Bridger wrote:
10) The marine may fire for 1 CP at sustained fire 5-5. Hits the GS and kills him. He is no longer on overwatch (though if you'd had another 2 CP left, you could put him back in overwatch).


How can you put him back on overwatch? (He's already taken his CP action by shooting.)
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Rob Corn
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)
Bridger wrote:
Marine is on overwatch, 3 CPs left.

1) Genestealer enters LOS (let's say 4 tiles away).
2) Marine shoots (OW action). 3-2. Misses.
3) Genestealer draws closer.
4) Marine shoots (OW action). 4-4. Misses & jams.
5) Genestealer draws closer.
6) Marine spends 1CP to unjam.
7) Genestealer draws closer yet. He is right on the marine now.

8a) Marine shoots (OW action). 3-2. Misses. He CAN NOT spend 2CPs to step backward and shoot. Genestealer is on top of him in melee

OR

8b) Instead of shooting overwatch, the marine player can spend 2CPs to step backwards (and cancel overwatch). He shoots because marine's may fire as PART of a move action. 5-3. Misses (no sustained fire).
9) The Genestealer moves up again.
10) The marine may fire for 1 CP at sustained fire 5-5. Hits the GS and kills him. He is no longer on overwatch (though if you'd had another 2 CP left, you could put him back in overwatch).


So at step 8 you choose between a single overwatch shot at 55% chance of hit (sustained fire) or step back and get a 30% shot and another 55% shot for 3 CPs

Good example! Step 10 might need a little addition, for 2 additional CPs he could go back on overwatch but only after a Space Marine witnessed a Genestealer action (since he already took an action to shoot using CPs).
 
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Rob Corn
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)
Bridger wrote:
So at step 8 you choose between a single overwatch shot at 55% chance of hit (sustained fire) or step back and get a 30% shot and another 55% shot for 3 CPs


It's 6/36 chance for regular fire (16%), 12/36 (33%) for sustained fire.
Edit for brain misfire. Must've rolled doubles and jammed that thing.
 
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Daniel Holz
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)
Yo Rob,

11 of the 36 possible combinations of two dice have at least one 6:
1,6 2,6 3,6 4,6 5,6 6,6 6,5 6,4 6,3 6,2 6,1
Making the chance of a kill with a non-sustained fire shot ~30.6%

There are 20 combinations of 2 dice that have at least one 5 or one 6, making the chance of a kill ~55.6%. Bit boring to list them all, but consider the number of possible combinations where no 5 or 6 is rolled: (1,2,3,4) on first dice & (1,2,3,4) on second -> 16 combinations.

If, on 16 of the 36 possible outcomes you do not roll at least one 5 or 6, then on the remaining 20, you must roll at least one 5 or 6.

So Adam's probabilities are legit.
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Rob Corn
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)
falsedan wrote:
Yo Rob,

11 of the 36 possible combinations of two dice have at least one 6:
1,6 2,6 3,6 4,6 5,6 6,6 6,5 6,4 6,3 6,2 6,1
Making the chance of a kill with a non-sustained fire shot ~30.6%

There are 20 combinations of 2 dice that have at least one 5 or one 6, making the chance of a kill ~55.6%. Bit boring to list them all, but consider the number of possible combinations where no 5 or 6 is rolled: (1,2,3,4) on first dice & (1,2,3,4) on second -> 16 combinations.

If, on 16 of the 36 possible outcomes you do not roll at least one 5 or 6, then on the remaining 20, you must roll at least one 5 or 6.

So Adam's probabilities are legit.


Argh, absolutely right. I've been working with close combat tables and was ignoring my second die's results in Excel. Brain malfunction.
 
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Daniel Holz
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)
Ha, well I forgot to take jamming into account.
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Adam Ruzzo
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)
JYoder wrote:

This all looks good to me except for this part...

Bridger wrote:
10) The marine may fire for 1 CP at sustained fire 5-5. Hits the GS and kills him. He is no longer on overwatch (though if you'd had another 2 CP left, you could put him back in overwatch).


How can you put him back on overwatch? (He's already taken his CP action by shooting.)


You are correct of course. I meant to indicate that as a future action you could put him back on overwatch.
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Jeremy Yoder
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)

Bridger wrote:
You are correct of course. I meant to indicate that as a future action you could put him back on overwatch.


And that can only be when he sees another GS in his LOS, right? Or can it be when a different SM see a GS in his LOS? (Or is that forthcoming from the FAQ?)
 
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)
JYoder wrote:

Bridger wrote:
You are correct of course. I meant to indicate that as a future action you could put him back on overwatch.


And that can only be when he sees another GS in his LOS, right? Or can it be when a different SM see a GS in his LOS? (Or is that forthcoming from the FAQ?)

It's forthcoming in the FAQ but it will (almost certainly) allow any Space Marine to carry out a CP action based on any other Space Marine witnessing a Genestealer action. So he could be put back on overwatch if any SM sees a GS take action.
 
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)
Haggis wrote:
It's forthcoming in the FAQ but it will (almost certainly) allow any Space Marine to carry out a CP action based on any other Space Marine witnessing a Genestealer action. So he could be put back on overwatch if any SM sees a GS take action.

Thanks. Thematically, this game makes sense, but this wouldn't make sense that SM 1 seeing a GS action enables SM 2 at the other end of the board to respond. I'm probably thinking too hard and it's simply a way to open up tactical options to the SMs, but for a game like this, I've loved having everything (up until this point) make sense.
 
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Branko K.
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)
JYoder wrote:
Haggis wrote:
It's forthcoming in the FAQ but it will (almost certainly) allow any Space Marine to carry out a CP action based on any other Space Marine witnessing a Genestealer action. So he could be put back on overwatch if any SM sees a GS take action.

Thanks. Thematically, this game makes sense, but this wouldn't make sense that SM 1 seeing a GS action enables SM 2 at the other end of the board to respond. I'm probably thinking too hard and it's simply a way to open up tactical options to the SMs, but for a game like this, I've loved having everything (up until this point) make sense.


Frankly, in this case I kinda don't care what GW says. I also find it illogical and silly and will not allow it in our games unless someone truly insists. I don't think it will make much difference anyways...
 
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)
Thematically it doesnt make sense for a Marine who hasnt seen a Genestealer action to suddenly start moving. The Overwatch is a kneejerk reaction to something moving. Not a tactical maneuver. Think of the CP spent here as Adrenalin Rush points for those who see some thingy skittering by.
 
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)
Omega2064 wrote:
Thematically it doesnt make sense for a Marine who hasnt seen a Genestealer action to suddenly start moving. The Overwatch is a kneejerk reaction to something moving. Not a tactical maneuver. Think of the CP spent here as Adrenalin Rush points for those who see some thingy skittering by.

I'm not a 40k player, but don't the Terminator suits have some kind of battle-net thing that can overlay video from other suits? Why not have a Marine elsewhere happen to see something the "witnessing" Marine didn't? Maybe he was running a different light filter or something...
 
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Re: Is this a valid scenario? (CP issue again)
Haggis wrote:
Omega2064 wrote:
Thematically it doesnt make sense for a Marine who hasnt seen a Genestealer action to suddenly start moving. The Overwatch is a kneejerk reaction to something moving. Not a tactical maneuver. Think of the CP spent here as Adrenalin Rush points for those who see some thingy skittering by.

I'm not a 40k player, but don't the Terminator suits have some kind of battle-net thing that can overlay video from other suits? Why not have a Marine elsewhere happen to see something the "witnessing" Marine didn't? Maybe he was running a different light filter or something...


The "Sensorium".

Terminator Suits interface directly with the Marine's enhance central nervous system. Each suit has a full suite of sensors (Autosenses) built in. Each suit is also in constant real time communication with the other members of the squad, allowing each marine to simultaneously "see" the input from all suits in the squad. Being Marines, they can tell which is which and react accordingly.
 
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