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Subject: Ultimate "usage of CPs in overwatch" algorithm rss

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Branko K.
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I'm kinda sick with this issue. I've decided to create an algorithm which would cover all the basis. Currently (from what I got from gazillion other threads) it looks like this:

1) Bob is in overwatch/jammed overwatch. Genestealer makes a move and enters Bob's LOS
2) Bob, do you want to use your CPs?

-----2a) Yes, I want to use CPs. Go to 3).
-----2b) No, I don't want to use CPs. Go to 4).
3) Bob does a CP-based action. Did Bob use CPs for unjamming?
-----3a) Yes. Bob is now in overwatch. Go to 5).
-----3b) No. Bob is now out of overwatch (but may still be jammed). Go to 5)
4) If not jammed, Bob takes an overwatch shot.
5) Genstealer makes the next move OR ends his turn.


The current version is what the current concensus is (or at least what I feel it is). I'll edit it accordingly as the situation develops.


Edit: the expanded version (which I guess could be more or less correct) is few posts down. This one is rather short and concise so I'll keep it like this (until someone corrects the potential mistakes in it).
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Gareth
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Minor point, I'd change the 5) to something more generic like "Game continues" or somesuch. As it is, it could be misinterpreted as saying the subsequent action is somehow different from the first.

Other than that, I totally agree.
 
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Branko K.
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Well, yes, I could mess it up even further, but I wanted it to be as clear as possible. For instance in 3b) if Bob was in "jammed overwatch" he enters the merely "jammed" state (which are two different things even though the game doesn't recognize them as such). But the point is to have a nice clear reference that at least broadly covers the apparent issue.

Edit: OK, I did tinker with it, just to be more precise.
 
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Rob Corn
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baba44713 wrote:
I'm kinda sick with this issue. I've decided to create an algorithm which would cover all the basis. Currently (from what I got from gazillion other threads) it looks like this:

1) Bob is in overwatch/jammed overwatch. Genestealer makes a move and enters Bob's LOS
2) Bob, do you want to use your CPs?

-----2a) Yes, I want to use CPs. Go to 3).
-----2b) No, I don't want to use CPs. Go to 4).
3) Bob does a CP-based action. Did Bob use CPs for unjamming?
-----3a) Yes. Bob is now still in overwatch. Go to 5).
-----3b) No. Bob is now out of overwatch. Go to 5)
4) If not jammed, Bob takes an overwatch shot.
5) Genstealer makes the next move.


The current version is what the current concensus is (or at least what I feel it is). I'll edit it accordingly as the situation develops.

Step 3 you might want to add that the CP-based action can be used on any one Space Marine, not necessarily Bob.
Step 4 could occur even if CPs were spent, as long as they weren't spend on Bob.
 
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Branko K.
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Sure about that?

Because from the rules I got that only the Space Marine who witnessed the action can use the CPs (the rules say "Space Marine", not "Space Marine player" which would make me think otherwise).

But if it is 100%, I'll change it.

This would then be the correct one:

1) Bob is in overwatch/jammed overwatch. Genestealer player makes a move which results in something happening in Bob's LOS
2) Space Marine player, do you want to use your CPs?

-----2a) Yes, I want to use CPs. Go to 3).
-----2b) No, I don't want to use CPs. Go to 5).
3) CP's used. Was Bob the one using the CPs?
-----3a) Yes, Bob was the one using the CPs. Go to 4).
-----3b) No, some other marine used the CPs. (Bob's sustained fire is lost) Go to 5).
4) Did Bob use CPs for unjamming?
-----4a) Yes. Bob is now in overwatch. (but sustained fire is lost) Go to 6).
-----4b) No. Bob is now out of overwatch (but his gun is still potentially jammed). Go to 6).
5) If not jammed, Bob takes an overwatch shot.
6) Genestealer player makes the next move OR ends his turn.




 
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Rob Corn
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baba44713 wrote:
Sure about that?

It's coming from Jervis Johnson, with the caveat that it's not 100% official yet but almost certainly will be.

baba44713 wrote:
Because from the rules I got that only the Space Marine who witnessed the action can use the CPs (the rules say "Space Marine", not "Space Marine player" which would make me think otherwise).

But if it is 100%, I'll change it. :)

This would then be the correct one:

1) Bob is in overwatch/jammed overwatch. Genestealer player makes a move which results in something happening in Bob's LOS
2) Space Marine player, do you want to use your CPs?

-----2a) Yes, I want to use CPs. Go to 3).
-----2b) No, I don't want to use CPs. Go to 5).
3) CP's used. Was Bob the one using the CPs?
-----3a) Yes, Bob was the one using the CPs. Go to 4).
-----3b) No, some other marine used the CPs. Go to 5).
4) Did Bob use CPs for unjamming?
-----4a) Yes. Bob is now in overwatch. Go to 6).
-----4b) No. Bob is now out of overwatch (but may still be jammed). Go to 6).
5) If not jammed, Bob takes an overwatch shot.
6) Genestealer player makes the next move OR ends his turn.

You may want to leave this out because it might get a little cluttered, but if Bob isn't the SM that had the CPs spent on him, Bob loses sustained fire if he had it (a model other than the target took an action).

Oh, and the overwatch shot has to be at a target within 12 squares.
 
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Branko K.
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Wrote it in, but I'm still leaving the original post clear.

Btw, does Bob lose sustained fire after unjamming? Can't seem to remember that...
 
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Rob Corn
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baba44713 wrote:
Wrote it in, but I'm still leaving the original post clear.

Btw, does Bob lose sustained fire after unjamming? Can't seem to remember that...

Yep.
 
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The Price of Knowledge is Despair
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Haggis wrote:
...if Bob isn't the SM that had the CPs spent on him, Bob loses sustained fire if he had it (a model other than the target took an action).


Shouldn't Bob lose Sustained Fire only if Bob's last action wasn't shooting at the target?
 
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Chris Dippel
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A genestealer move must come between 3 and 4, right?
Can you unjam AND shoot overwatch without a genestealer move inbetween?
 
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Branko K.
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cdippel71 wrote:
A genestealer move must come between 3 and 4, right?
Can you unjam AND shoot overwatch without a genestealer move inbetween?


I'm pretty sure no and.. no.
 
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Chris Dippel
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How can the answer to both questions be no?
 
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Branko K.
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No, Genestealer does not get to move between 3 and 4.

No, you cannot unjam and shoot overwatch shot in the same turn.

 
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Chris Dippel
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Quote:
No, Genestealer does not get to move between 3 and 4.

No, you cannot unjam and shoot overwatch shot in the same turn.



Yes, I understand that you are answering no to both questions, BUT...

If Bob cannot unjam and then shoot in the same turn, then how can he go right from step 3 to step four?

Step three is him unjamming, step four is him shooting in overwatch.

If
Quote:
you cannot unjam and shoot overwatch shot in the same turn.


Then surely the genestealer gets to move between Step 3 (the unjamming) and Step 4 (the overwatch shot).


Edit: Oops my bad. I mean steps 4 and 5 of the revised algorithm... I was looking at steps 3 and 4 of the original post.
 
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Branko K.
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If we're talking about the algorithm on top, then no, he cannot go to step 4. Usage of CP effectively destroys your option of placing an overwatch shot. Btw, this is something completely opposite from what the rules state, but it seems that this is both the general consensus as well as GW's semi-offical ruling so...
 
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Rob Corn
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GrandOne wrote:
Haggis wrote:
...if Bob isn't the SM that had the CPs spent on him, Bob loses sustained fire if he had it (a model other than the target took an action).


Shouldn't Bob lose Sustained Fire only if Bob's last action wasn't shooting at the target?

The rules are specific here (which also lends support to the "CPs have priority" ruling) that one of the three situations in which sustained fire is lost is "...if a model other than the target takes an action" (p. 19). I can't think of any situations that would allow a model other than the target to take an action unless actions spent by CPs are legal.
 
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Adam Ruzzo
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Pretty sure gun only jams on overwatch, why would it jam if not in overwatch?
 
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Branko K.
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Bridger wrote:
Pretty sure gun only jams on overwatch, why would it jam if not in overwatch?


You are misreading it.

If, while in "jammed overwatch", you use your CPs for something other then unjamming (for instance moving out of the way), then you are out of overwatch but your bolter will still remain jammed.
 
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Väinö Hirvelä
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Ok I think the BIG question in the "revised alcorythm" is that what does "pontentially jammed" mean? Is it jammed or not?!


So that if I have a jammed gun (this marine is obviously in overwatch) and a stealer moves towards this marine...then if this marine does not unjam his gun imidiately does he lose the "free back to overwatch" chance...that would have happened if he had imidiately unjammed?!


Also same question but backwards...a stealer moves towards a marine and that marine jams...Then that stealer ends that models movement


then another stealer advances against flamer marine...now do I have to use this reaction to unjam that basic marines gun?! or can I also flame something (do somethiing completely different) and sitll later on the turn unjam that marine and still have it on overwatch?
 
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Rob Corn
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vhirvela wrote:
So that if I have a jammed gun (this marine is obviously in overwatch) and a stealer moves towards this marine...then if this marine does not unjam his gun imidiately does he lose the "free back to overwatch" chance...that would have happened if he had imidiately unjammed?!

No, you can decide to unjam later if you want, you'll still flip back to overwatch.

vhirvela wrote:
Also same question but backwards...a stealer moves towards a marine and that marine jams...Then that stealer ends that models movement then another stealer advances against flamer marine...now do I have to use this reaction to unjam that basic marines gun?! or can I also flame something (do somethiing completely different) and sitll later on the turn unjam that marine and still have it on overwatch?

You can spend CPs on whatever you want in whatever order you want, as long as only one Space Marine carries out one action in response to one Genestealer action.

So yes, you could unjam your Space Marine when the flamer Marine sees a Genestealer move, then when the Genestealer moves again FOOOOOOOSH, crispy critter.
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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I'm glad this algorithm cleared up everyone's questions...

(Sorry. Couldn't resist.)

I think people are overcomplicating this.


Genestealer performs an action so that at the end of that action it is in the LOS of 1 or more marines.
Marine player can perform 1 action using CPS on any marine.
If the marine that takes the action was on overwatch, he loses overwatch UNLESS he was on overwatch with a jammed gun and the action he performs is unjamming his gun, in which case he goes back into overwatch.
Now check each marine that has the genestealer in LOS.
Disregard any marine that performed an action (including unjamming).
If there are any marines that did not perform an action AND are in overwatch, they MUST shoot at the stealer.

Right?

(God, let that be right.)
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Rob Corn
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
I'm glad this algorithm cleared up everyone's questions... :)

(Sorry. Couldn't resist.)

I think people are overcomplicating this.


Genestealer performs an action so that at the end of that action it is in the LOS of 1 or more marines.
Marine player can perform 1 action using CPS on any marine.
If the marine that takes the action was on overwatch, he loses overwatch UNLESS he was on overwatch with a jammed gun and the action he performs is unjamming his gun, in which case he goes back into overwatch.
Now check each marine that has the genestealer in LOS.
Disregard any marine that performed an action (including unjamming).
If there are any marines that did not perform an action AND are in overwatch, they MUST shoot at the stealer.

Right?

(God, let that be right.)

You got it! I think people are seeing a lot of words and thinking it's complicated... it's not. CPs first, only one action per SM, clear overwatch if necessary, take overwatch shots as allowed.
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Vaughan Cockell
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My understanding of this is:

Genestealer does action ending in line of site of Marine in overwatch
Marine can perform ONE action -
options are - Overwatch shot (0 CP cost)
Unjam jammed weapon (1 CP cost)
Any other action (listed CP cost and lose overwatch)

My reading was that only Marine witnessing the genestealer can act but on hat I'll wait for the FAQ. It's also not clear if numerous Marines can take non overwatch actions if they can see genestealer action even though multiple overwatch shoot actions can be triggered by genestealer action.

Edit: Oh yes, and marine in overwatch MUST shoot, unless he does another action, cancelling overwatch.

Non overwatch Marine has the option of performing any action for its listed CP cost when a genestealer does an action ending in the Marine's line of site.
 
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Väinö Hirvelä
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Psychman wrote:


Edit: Oh yes, and marine in overwatch MUST shoot, unless he does another action, cancelling overwatch.

Non overwatch Marine has the option of performing any action for its listed CP cost when a genestealer does an action ending in the Marine's line of site.


So unjamming your gun would force you to overwatch shoot the stealer?...He did a action did not cancel overwatch status!

WRONG?!
 
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Rob Corn
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vhirvela wrote:
Psychman wrote:


Edit: Oh yes, and marine in overwatch MUST shoot, unless he does another action, cancelling overwatch.

Non overwatch Marine has the option of performing any action for its listed CP cost when a genestealer does an action ending in the Marine's line of site.


So unjamming your gun would force you to overwatch shoot the stealer?...He did a action did not cancel overwatch status!

WRONG?!

Overwatch is not cancelled but he already did his action (cleared the jam) and cannot take another action until a Genestealer takes another action.
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