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Chaos in the Old World» Forums » Rules

Subject: The Grail is Found + Ruined Region rss

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Daniel Becerra Aller
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Last game, OW card "The Grail is Found" appears in 5th turn of the game.
The Grail is Found wrote:
In the end phase when Old World cards are resolved, all corruption tokens are removed from every region where there is at least one Event token.


Bretonnia had already 8 corruption tokens and a warpstone there, so it wasn't difficult to reach the 12 corruption threshold on the same 5th turn.

As you check for ruination in the Corruption phase, we put the Ruined card and award the VPs to all powers that corrupt Bretonnia on that turn.

BUT...
In the End Phase "Resolve Old World Cards" come directly before "Score Ruined Regions", so after some thoughts (and complaints from Nurgle's player) we did remove all corruption token, then split the VP award evenly among all four players, since they have all the same number of tokens there (zero).

Is this correct?
 
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brian
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You did not do it correctly. A region is RUINED during Phase 5 Corruption Phase. Bonus points are scored immediately.

SCORING ruined regions doesn't happen until Phase 6 End Phase. The effect of the old world card would not have affected a ruined region - only regions not yet ruined at this point.

Nurgle should have gotten his points for that region.
 
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brian
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Caedes wrote:
then split the VP award evenly among all four players, since they have all the same number of tokens there (zero).

Is this correct?

Oh, and you only score points for actually having corruption in a region. You would not divide up remaining points among all players that had nothing. So even though you got in this condition because of an incorrect play, you even played the next step wrong as well.

If Nurgle was the only one that had corruption in the region and no other players had any, he alone would score points and 2nd place would not be given out.

So you double screwed Nurgle.
 
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Daniel Becerra Aller
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
You did not do it correctly. A region is RUINED during Phase 5 Corruption Phase. Bonus points are scored immediately.


That we handled correctly

ColtsFan76 wrote:
The effect of the old world card would not have affected a ruined region - only regions not yet ruined at this point.

I'm trying to find out where does it say that a Ruined Region is immune to Old World effects.

Game Manual, p.25 wrote:
When a region is ruined, the following rules affect:
- New Chaos Cards cannot be played.
- New Old World tokens cannot be placed, although existing ones are not necessarily removed.
- No victory points awarded for domination.
- No corruption tokens placed during corruption phase.

All other normal rules for regions remain in effect for ruined regions.

Emphasis mine.

Please, note that I'm not argueing here. I simply want to know where did you get that statement.

Thank you!
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Daniel Becerra Aller
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ColtsFan76 wrote:

Oh, and you only score points for actually having corruption in a region.


Again, where is that rule written?
It is never said as such. Players with no corruption would gain no points because in normal circumstances the other players are awarded, but this is a region WITHOUT any token remaining.


 
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Justin Davis
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I guess it all depends on if you play that you must have at least one corruption token in a ruined region to score anything from a ruination card during the End Phase. The rules and the FAQ do not address the situation where there are no corruption tokens during this phase (that I've been able to see). I tend to think that players should have at least one corruption token in a ruined region in order to get any points from it. Otherwise, what have you actually done to deserve those points?
 
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Justin Davis
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Plus, looking at it thematically, The Grail was found! It's power removes the evil, vile corruption from an area, even if the region was ruined beyond repair before all the corruption is cleansed. The Chaos Gods were successful in their ruination of the region, but their grip on it has been removed and the region can start the slow rebuilding that is needed. So, in game terms, the Chaos Gods got their reward for the ruination (the bonus points during the corruption phase), but will get no further points because the nauseatingly good people were able to throw off the yoke of chaotic oppression.
 
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Daniel Becerra Aller
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In fact, we agree on dividing the points among all four players, by applying rules as written and also out of sympathy for nurgle, who was ahead on VPs and an even split put him closer to the endgame while keeping the same distance between us.

True, it doesn't make any sense to award points if there are no corruption tokens left, but my post was intended as a special case scenario and to check out how other people would have handled the situation.
 
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David
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The obvious way to score it would be as follows:

1) Region is Ruined. Bonus Points are scored immediately.
2) Old World Card effect removes all corruption from the region
3) No one scores Ruination Points since no one has corruption in the region.

The "Resolve Old World Effects" step happens BEFORE the "Score Ruination Points" step for a reason.
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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Shryke wrote:
The obvious way to score it would be as follows:

1) Region is Ruined. Bonus Points are scored immediately.
2) Old World Card effect removes all corruption from the region
3) No one scores Ruination Points since no one has corruption in the region.

The "Resolve Old World Effects" step happens BEFORE the "Score Ruination Points" step for a reason.


I tend to agree with Shryke - that is the best interpretation given the rules as written.

But the various point distribution scenarios in the rules seem to indicate they had not forseen the potential all corruption to have been removed from the region prior to scoring. If Shryke's method isn't what the designers intended, errata will be needed to amend it.
 
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brian
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Caedes wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:

Oh, and you only score points for actually having corruption in a region.


Again, where is that rule written?
It is never said as such. Players with no corruption would gain no points because in normal circumstances the other players are awarded, but this is a region WITHOUT any token remaining.

First off, sorry for not coming back to this thread earlier, I didn't get a subscription notification until just now.

So for the easy part. You MUST have corruption on the region to score poitns. It clearly says that in the rules: Page 20 and 21.

Quote:
For each ruined region to be scored, the player with the
most corruption tokens in that region scores the “first”
value for the region in question (as recorded in the table
on the ruination card). Then, the player with the secondmost
corruption tokens
in that region scores the “second”
value for the region in question.

If only one player has corruption tokens in the region
in question, only the “first” value is scored for that
ruination
.

(emphasis added)

So no doubt about it, you have to have tokens to even be considered for scoring. If you don't have tokens, you don't count in that region. So you can't claim we are all "equal with zero" and we all get a share of the points.

Second, looking at the exact sequence and the wording on the card, then the effect should block all scoring. I was thinking a final score was triggered by Phase 5 but not resolved yet. But if The Grail sneaks in and takes all the corruption, there is nothing to denote who had the most corruption.

So I agree completely with Shryke's analysis. Score bonus points, remove the corruption, no one gets any ruination points. The ruined card stays out and this region counts towards one of the 5 to end the game.

Nurgle should have known this card was out and probably not ruined the region anymore until the event expired. And the others should have done what they could to ruin it to wipe out his hard work.
 
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Joe Stude
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I was a little surprised to see this had already been hit on, and quite a while ago it seems. We came upon this situation tonight and, thankfully, after reading carefully we actually played it correctly.
 
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Frank McGirk
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Shryke wrote:
The obvious way to score it would be as follows:

1) Region is Ruined. Bonus Points are scored immediately.
2) Old World Card effect removes all corruption from the region
3) No one scores Ruination Points since no one has corruption in the region.

The "Resolve Old World Effects" step happens BEFORE the "Score Ruination Points" step for a reason.


Okay...so if you were playing with the Skaven, and the Skaven player had figures in the area, then the Skaven would win the first place points for corrupting?

Since the area had been corrupted, all other markers had been removed, and the Skaven's special per-figure ruination calculations would still work?
 
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