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Space Hulk (third edition)» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Cheating with timer as a valid strategy? rss

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Väinö Hirvelä
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With let's say 10 marine left on board and hectic position I just redraw my 1 and got 6!

Now time managment will be crucial! 3 minutes in this situation in most maps is really really short! (atleast when stealers are coming from all the directions!)

These situations I have found that still the best strategy is just stare at the board like a zombie for 15-25s and really think all the possibilities because usually I will miss someting obvious.



My question is that when I am really pressed with time and still have to manage moving 3-4 marines and have let's say 4 CP's left that i still wish to use.

Is it valid to declare that this marine will use all his 4 action points to shoot at stealers that are nearest to him! and flamer flames that boardpiece full of blips and stealers...this marine shoots two times at that stealer and goes to overwatch.

Then I just roll the dieces after my turn is over...it's not the best strategy since that last marine might kill the stealer in question with first shot and then efectively wastes one CP by shooting at air...

and also flamer might have wanted to flame again if all the stealers did not die...

But I think this is only way I can manage it with only 3min on the clock and that much things to do!

No stealer player has ever complained...mayby they are planning on using same kind of tactics when playing against me...and frakly I will definetly allow that...I just hoped that this had somekind of timing system that would give you even a little benefit when you have more units vs. having less units...as it is

for example the first mission is just time wise a lot easier than some of the later ones...also every mission with librarian is really hard since he can only use spells during marine players turn!?


What do you guys think am I cheating?!
Should I try to roll the dices also during my turn or is this ok the way I am playing?
 
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Sven
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Well...do as you please but I wouldn't allow it. You take all actions imediatly and roll any dice at my table. It would be far too much hassle to remember what you announced you would do and so opens up many possibilities for cheating.
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Tom

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Well, I think you're supposed to do each marines action in turn, so you should only be finishing up the die rolls of one marine.

I think you're saying you are declaring all the moves and shots, and then rolling all the dice separately after the timer? I don't think that's allowed by strict interpretation of the rules.

That said, if no else minds and the game is fun, then who cares!
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Luc Lauzon

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The timer is there to force you to make fast decisions (and live with them...). If you have to cheat, why don't you just leave the timer aside?
We played the 1st edition with a timer the first few times and soon dispensed with it; we played fast and swore a lot when things went wrong...
 
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Paul DeStefano
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vhirvela wrote:
What do you guys think am I cheating?!


Yes.
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Kris Vezner
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You are breaking the rules. "Cheating" is perhaps a harsh term, to me that implies some intent to gain unfair advantage. You haven't phrased your discussion that way. But regardless of your intent, you are breaking the rules.

The rules say that you have to finish performing all actions for one Marine before moving on to another.

The rules say that when the timer runs out, you get the finish the one action if any that you are currently conducting. Any actions not actually performed yet do not occur.

Under these rules, "declaring" an action has no meaning or effect.

As someone stated, the timer functions as a pressure mechanism. If you have AP issues, then the timer is a great way to help you start coping with them. I have huge AP issues and I am happy with the timer as part of the game. I'd suggest just deal with the timer pressure and look forward to when that game is over and you switch sides and play the genestealer. Also remember that you can plan your next turn while the genestealer player is taking his turn.
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David Jackman
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One thing that can definately save you a lot of time (like in many board games) is to be mentally active on the other players turn. As soon as your turn is done, start thinking about the next one. Dont ignore what the GS player is doing, but many times you can anticipate some of their actions.

That said, a GOOD GS player will take his turn quickly to try to limit the amount of time you have to think between turns. But, as a mechanic, this is great - speeds up play and adds intensity.
 
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Väinö Hirvelä
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Ok I understand now!

But on a litle different note...does the rules permit me to "force" the stealer player to roll for me? (or even someone other?) I mean I can even cut some of the time if I don't have to resolve dice rolls myself but someone else can throw them and tell me instantly that ok now you killed..or now you did not kill and jammed...etc?!


I see there is distinction in the rules that I have to move and make my actions on every single marine before moving on to the next one (unless I use CP's in between! and declaring any actions is invalis because they cannot be "stackked".

But can someone else roll for me?! I mean rolling can take some time! I think I might be a "slowroller" when it comes to dice
 
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Paul DeStefano
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vhirvela wrote:
But can someone else roll for me?!


No.

Its the dexterity part of the game. Roll the dice too fast and one rolls to the far side of the table, you have to go get it.

You're a Space Marine, dammit. Stay cool.
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Väinö Hirvelä
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Geosphere wrote:
vhirvela wrote:
But can someone else roll for me?!


No.

Its the dexterity part of the game. Roll the dice too fast and one rolls to the far side of the table, you have to go get it.

You're a Space Marine, dammit. Stay cool.


well heh there was no mention of dextrity on my rulebook!!

also we do use somekind of box so that those pesky dices cant roll off the board etc..

but ok...I guess like someone posted anything can go if my opponents will agree!! it's only a game! I don't want to lose games just because of the timer...but I will accept that I will lose some of them partly beceause of the timer...and It's the best when you making small tiny errors because of the timing pressure and good stealer makes good use of that!
 
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Eric Buhr
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I don't think you want the 'Stealer making your rolls for you:

"Oh geez will you look at that, the dice just rolled right off the table and under the desk. Let me go look for them. No, no, you can't do the next Marine's actions, you have to wait until these are completed. Ah here they are. Oh, clumsy me, there they go again! Hold on I'll go get them. Oh what's that you say, the timer ran out and you only got to do your actions for one of the Marines? Gee, that's a shame!"
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Artur Salwarowski
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There is also another issue which I found pretty vague regarding the timer and the whole SM turn. Though the rules clearly state that the timer is to be flipped the moment the SM player places his command point marker on the status sheet, then again I'm not sure whether he is forced to take it immediately, or rather allowed to pause for, let's say, 5 minutes before actually drawing the counter.

My SM opponent would spend like 5 minutes planning his whole action phase, and while I was trying to coerce him to speed up the whole process, then I wasn't sure if I was actually entitled to do that, or not

 
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Väinö Hirvelä
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Muttah wrote:
There is also another issue which I found pretty vague regarding the timer and the whole SM turn. Though the rules clearly state that the timer is to be flipped the moment the SM player places his command point marker on the status sheet, then again I'm not sure whether he is forced to take it immediately, or rather allowed to pause for, let's say, 5 minutes before actually drawing the counter.

My SM opponent would spend like 5 minutes planning his whole action phase, and while I was trying to coerce him to speed up the whole process, then I wasn't sure if I was actually entitled to do that, or not



well thats clearly bigger cheat than me!

I mean yes the rules don't clarify...but I would think that you do yout thinking while the clock is running!?
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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Sounds to me like people are pulling some silly tactics to try and beat the system - I mean, really, if the timer is such a problem for people that they have to come up with this sort of thing, then just agree not to use the timer.

Do people really play games with people that they are constantly trying to trick or cheat in some way? I don't.

The rules don't cover topics of fair play, but I think it's self-explanatory how these things work:

Genestealer says "my turns over."
Marine immediately draws a CP. If he doesn't want it, he immediately replaces and draws again. No waiting around, no long pauses for thought. Quick change. It's not rocket science.
As soon as the marine has drawn the CP, he places it on the board and the genestealer turns the timer (remember, genestealer controls the timer so if the marine spends too long looking at his CP token, just flip the damn timer on him.)
Marine has the time it takes for the sand to run out to make his move. If the marine is new, he may need a rule explained, in which case you can turn the timer on its side - but once someone has played a few times this isn't a problem any more. Actions are sequential. If the timer runs out, the marine is allowed to finish whatever action he was doing (for example, if he was about to roll for a shooting action, or he had an overwatch token in his hand ready to place).
Sand runs out - genestealer turn starts.

That's it.

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Tom

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Muttah wrote:
There is also another issue which I found pretty vague regarding the timer and the whole SM turn. Though the rules clearly state that the timer is to be flipped the moment the SM player places his command point marker on the status sheet, then again I'm not sure whether he is forced to take it immediately, or rather allowed to pause for, let's say, 5 minutes before actually drawing the counter.

My SM opponent would spend like 5 minutes planning his whole action phase, and while I was trying to coerce him to speed up the whole process, then I wasn't sure if I was actually entitled to do that, or not



I also think your opponent was cheating. What's the point of using the timer if the SM player can sit there and plan his/her moves before even starting it.
 
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Drew Mc
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At the end of the day, it's just a game (and one that I don't think will ever be played competitively). You can play however you want, and if you want more time when you play as marines, make a house rule.
Just be aware that the intention of the writers (from what I understand) is that the marine player should be on his toes for his whole turn, and winging it to an extent (aside from the fact that you can do a little pre-planning during the 'stealer turn). If you twist the rules (ie, roll the dice after your turn, spending ages 'inspecting' your command point token, or any other way of getting more time during your turn), that's fine, but you're no longer playing with the original intent. You just have to decide how you and your friends want to play the game.
Personally, I like the fast-paced games with little time to decide on the perfect tactic. Yes, I could use 'tricks'(/house rules) to get more time, but I'm not getting better at playing the game that way. I'm just getting more devious.
Either way- as long as you're playing the game in a way you enjoy!
 
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Rami Finkelshtein
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Honestly if you are looking for ways to cheat the timer play without it...it will make it much more enjoyable. Don't enforce the timer if no one is going to follow that rule. A game experience is only as good as its players.
 
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Artur Salwarowski
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Right - that's how I initially thought it should be. devil Thanks for the replies, and next time... No mercy! angry
 
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Kris Vezner
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"Examining the chit" for five minutes, now THAT is cheating. Probably what you should do is start the timer when your opponent draws his chit, but of course the rules say otherwise.

Tell your opponent that he gets 10 seconds to decide whether to redraw and five seconds to put the redraw on the command display. If he doesn't redraw in 10 seconds, start the timer. If he takes more than five seconds to put the redraw on the command display, start the timer.

If he won't shape up, I also recommend looking for a better class of opponent.
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