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Subject: Equality of Offensive? rss

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Lynette
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I think CapAp and I are going to throw down ... yet another thread offshoot from this morning's drama.

Enjoy the show and jump in as desired.


Original source post if you want to look at the context from which John pulled the first quote. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/3926342#3926342

Meerkat wrote:
CapAp wrote:
Meerkat wrote:

PS - Men for all their griping about how looks matter for them too... it really isn't the same, which is why a "hot gamer husband" list is substantially different in tone and effect.


Bullshit. You want equality, practice equality.


When I get equal pay and promotions for equal education/work you're on!

Quippy slap downs aside .... I didn't object to the original list nor did I click on or look at the "hot gamer husbands" list. So how have I personally not "practiced" equality?

Simply by noting and voicing social realities doesn't mean I like them.

Women and men are different and society views and values them differently.
And they react emotionally to different stimuli because of it.

Are you really going to argue that isn't true?


CapAp's reply

CapAp wrote:
Meerkat wrote:
So how have I personally not "practiced" equality?

By acknowledging that a a social inequality exists, but is not as offensive (e.g. "a hot husband contest isn't as the same as a hot wife contest").

Quote:
Simply by noting and voicing social realities doesn't mean I like them.

That's a cop-out. It's like saying "hey, I don't BELIEVE black people only count as 3/5 of a person, but that's what the LAW says". If you're going to voice your objection to the objectification of women, you must also voice an objection to the objectification of men that has been demonstrated at the same time. If you don't, you're a hypocrite.

Quote:
Women and men are different and society views and values them differently.
And they react emotionally to different stimuli because of it. Are you really going to argue that isn't true?

Absolutely not. But I'll say it again, if you want equality, practice equality. If you disapprove of men using "differing emotional reactions" to discriminate against you (and we have for centuries), then don't use those differences to discriminate against men.


I will have my reply posted in a few minutes.
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I have to agree with CapAp here. If you're against a "hot wives" thread, but don't care about a "hot husbands" thread, that's just hypocritical.
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Lynette
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CapAp wrote:
Meerkat wrote:
So how have I personally not "practiced" equality?

By acknowledging that a a social inequality exists, but is not as offensive (e.g. "a hot husband contest isn't as the same as a hot wife contest").

Quote:
Simply by noting and voicing social realities doesn't mean I like them.

That's a cop-out. It's like saying "hey, I don't BELIEVE black people only count as 3/5 of a person, but that's what the LAW says". If you're going to voice your objection to the objectification of women, you must also voice an objection to the objectification of men that has been demonstrated at the same time. If you don't, you're a hypocrite.


That is total BS John... if something isn't offensive to one group but it is potentially offensive to another than the potential for unequal treatment or offensive behavior is different.

I often call white men "boy" I would think twice about calling a black man "boy" because of the historical baggage that might attach which would make it potentially offensive to the black man. So if I was in a bar flirting with black man instead of saying you are a damn fine boy I would probably say you are a cute dude.

And I would point out that a white man calling a black man "boy" is almost certainly going to be taken as an insult. But have heard older white men call out to younger white men, "hey there boy can you lend me a hand?" often in my life.

So now looking at the male/female issue at hand. Not only do the majority of men NOT mind being objectified... the positively relish the thought/idea of it.

So I call total BULL SHIT on the idea that the two lists in question had the potential to be equally offensive.

This is like the White males bitching about affirmative action being equally discriminatory as the previous imbalance Affirmative Action is trying to correct.
You can argue that the program is flawed and has issues that make it a bad idea. But the whiny crap that it is somehow equally unfair and/or discriminatory against white men to hold open some spots in universities for minorities as the real racial discrimination of the past is just beyond absurd.

Quote:

Quote:
Women and men are different and society views and values them differently.
And they react emotionally to different stimuli because of it. Are you really going to argue that isn't true?

Absolutely not. But I'll say it again, if you want equality, practice equality. If you disapprove of men using "differing emotional reactions" to discriminate against you (and we have for centuries), then don't use those differences to discriminate against men.


If you or any man tells me he is genuinely offended by my ogling him... I promise I will apologize and cease immediately. But I seriously doubt that is ever going to happen.

However there are things I would not say to men because it could be offensive to them or make them uncomfortable that I would certainly say to a women without even thinking about it. For example when men I know who have lovely smooth action in how they move I would never say to them "wow I envy how graceful you are". Even if I thought it and even though I think of it as a compliment.

Heck I would think twice about telling a man I think he is really nice or kind unless I know him enough to think he won't take it wrong. Because some men think this is some kind of "buzz" word for "unattractive"

No women gets upset by being called "nice" or kind. No women is likely to be offended by my saying to her I think we are going to be great friends. Men sometimes are because they see that as rejection instead of acceptance.

This isn't a double standard it is recognition that men and women are actually different. That they have different areas of baggage and vulnerability and if I care about them I am going to take *THEIR* world view into consideration when dealing with them. Not insist on come artificial equal verbiage that might hurt and upset half of them.

And I claim that the same applies here about women and men when focusing on "looks" and objectification. Other than as a whiny counter argument to women's VALID recognition of an inequality that really exists men just don't MIND being valued for their looks.

You are going to have to convince me they do before I am going to buy into that the potential for offense is the same.
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Meerkat wrote:

I often call white men "boy" I would think twice about calling a black man "boy" because of the historical baggage that might attach which would make it potentially offensive to the black man. So if I was in a bar flirting with black man instead of saying you are a damn fine boy I would probably say you are a cute dude.


I'd be offended if you called me a boy, and it has nothing to do with race.

Meerkat wrote:

And I would point out that a white man calling a black man "boy" is almost certainly going to be taken as an insult. But have heard older white men call out to younger white men, "hey there boy can you lend me a hand?" often in my life.


Yeah, and older black men calling a black man boy isn't offensive. Actually, I think any old man calling a younger man "boy" isn't offensive regardless of race. And if you're black and it offends you, you need a thicker skin. The man's old, he thinks anyone under the age of 75 is "boy". I've met people like this, it has nothing to do with race.

Meerkat wrote:

So now looking at the male/female issue at hand. Not only do the majority of men NOT mind being objectified... the positively relish the thought/idea of it.


Have you met the majority of men? I could just as easily say the majority of WOMEN do NOT mind being objectified. That's a sexist comment.

Meerkat wrote:

So I call total BULL SHIT on the idea that the two lists in question had the potential to be equally offensive.


If I recall correctly, one of the main reasons you were offended was because of issues with people expecting you to look one way, and then when they meet you at cons they're "disappointed" or something. Pray tell me how this doesn't apply to men? Do we not have feelings too?

What, you think I'm not offended when a woman next to me goes off about how "hot" a guy is, and I look nothing like that? Please. You're not the only one who can be offended.

Meerkat wrote:


This is like the White males bitching about affirmative action being equally discriminatory as the previous imbalance Affirmative Action is trying to correct.
You can argue that the program is flawed and has issues that make it a bad idea. But the whiny crap that it is somehow equally unfair and/or discriminatory against white men to hold open some spots in universities for minorities as the real racial discrimination of the past is just beyond absurd.


It is racist, it gives one race a benefit over another solely because of their race. Whether or not you agree with it, it is discriminatory. I find it funny that African-Americans from South Africa (who happen to be white, born in South Africa, then moved to America) aren't eligible for "African-American" scholarships. So, how is that not racist?

Meerkat wrote:

Quote:

Quote:
Women and men are different and society views and values them differently.
And they react emotionally to different stimuli because of it. Are you really going to argue that isn't true?

Absolutely not. But I'll say it again, if you want equality, practice equality. If you disapprove of men using "differing emotional reactions" to discriminate against you (and we have for centuries), then don't use those differences to discriminate against men.


If you or any man tells me he is genuinely offended by my ogling him... I promise I will apologize and cease immediately. But I seriously doubt that is ever going to happen.


Whether or not you doubt it doesn't change whether or not it's true. I might be offended by a woman ooling me. Just as some women might . Some woman might also welcome some ogling, and some guys might too. It's not solely dependent on sex.

Meerkat wrote:


However there are things I would not say to men because it could be offensive to them or make them uncomfortable that I would certainly say to a women without even thinking about it. For example when men I know who have lovely smooth action in how they move I would never say to them "wow I envy how graceful you are". Even if I thought it and even though I think of it as a compliment.

Heck I would think twice about telling a man I think he is really nice or kind unless I know him enough to think he won't take it wrong. Because some men think this is some kind of "buzz" word for "unattractive"

No women gets upset by being called "nice" or kind. No women is likely to be offended by my saying to her I think we are going to be great friends. Men sometimes are because they see that as rejection instead of acceptance.


I don't see how this pertains to the subject, these are just your own biases representing themselves. You think that men will think it's an insult if you think they're kind.

Personally, I would love it if someone said I was kind and graceful. I would much prefer that to someone telling me they think I'm handsome. Why? Because I can control kindness, I can't control handsomeness. You assuming that I wouldn't want to be complimented on my kindness solely because of my penis is sexist.

Meerkat wrote:

This isn't a double standard it is recognition that men and women are actually different. That they have different areas of baggage and vulnerability and if I care about them I am going to take *THEIR* world view into consideration when dealing with them. Not insist on come artificial equal verbiage that might hurt and upset half of them.

And I claim that the same applies here about women and men when focusing on "looks" and objectification. Other than as a whiny counter argument to women's VALID recognition of an inequality that really exists men just don't MIND being valued for their looks.

You are going to have to convince me they do before I am going to buy into that the potential for offense is the same.


I think your problem here isn't that men and women have different areas of baggage, it's that different PEOPLE have different areas of baggage.

Depending on the "baggage", as you put it, different people will have different reactions to things based on their history, feelings, personality, etc... Not necessarily sex.


People are different, whether they be male or female. Different people are insulted by different things, you just can't take anything personally or get offended by different opinions. Have an open mind, and don't make assumptions about people based on their race, sex, place of origin, etc... and we'll be fine.

But if you tell me I'm insulted because someone tells me I'm kind because I'm a male, well, then I'm insulted. You don't know me, to make an assumption about me because of my sex is sexist by definition.

It's okay, I have a solution to all of this. If something offends you, it doesn't mean that others don't have the right to partake in it. If you're offended by the beautiful wives thread, then don't read it or post in it.

Just because YOU'RE offended doesn't mean you should ruin their fun. You have the ability to ignore topics.
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Lynette
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Important note.... I wasn't offended by the list I was answer the question about why anybody could/would be offended.

I wasn't usually offended about people's reactions to my looks, I was often hurt and have learned to be prepared to deal with negative reactions.

And I just don't think men get written of as even "friend" material very often for not being handsome enough. But I have heard many a man say they cannot see why anybody would hang out with an ugly chick because what is the point? But that would be another debate.

I am careful about saying Kind, Graceful and Friend at/to men because I have been lectured... more than once by at least a dozen different men over the years about how damaging those words could be because of the potential to immaculate them. I have been really raked over the coals at for using Nice and Friend.

I make broad generalizations based on lots of data that is available. That doesn't mean I don't realize every individual person may be different or react differently. But recognizing the potential for land mines and treading carefully is wise if you care about hurting other people.

And while that list didn't offend me... in general I comprehend why many women could have been offended and they needed somebody to voice that reality. So I did.

Have to do more later... out of time.
 
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So where is the hot gamer guy/husband list? I can't find it soblue
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jageroxorz wrote:
I have to agree with CapAp here. If you're against a "hot wives" thread, but don't care about a "hot husbands" thread, that's just hypocritical.


I don't agree. Context matters. One of the reasons that some people find "hot women" threads offensive is that objectification of women has some history and prevalence to it. The same simply isn't the case with men, or at least not nearly to the same extent.

It's like a cartoon depicting a President as a monkey. It's rude in any case, but when the President is Obama it has a different context because there is a long history of calling black men monkeys, apes, etc., and arguing that they are sub-human or genetically inferior to whites.
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I'm so tired of this issue and yet I here I post....

I can't figure out why, when people know they are doing something that bothers other people, they keep doing it.

If a guy told me he didn't want to be called 'boy' I can't imagine continuing to call him 'boy'
and telling him that he ought to just 'get over it'
and he's being 'puritan'
and 'politically correct'
and he's too sensitive
and blah and blah and blah....

And if I did continue to call him 'boy' after he's made it clear that he doesn't like being called 'boy', then shouldn't he perceive my actions as deliberately combative?

Time and again, women have tried to convey to the men on this site how their ogling of the ladies goes over the line and time and again the men react by blaming the women for being too sensitive

or they give examples of how other women they know have no problem with it (like all women are the same)
or they whine about censorship
or they break down like spoiled babies whining because they're afraid someone's going to take away their boobies!!

What I would like to see is some recognition that drooling over women makes this an uncomfortable place for women to be. I would like the men to use some freaking restraint when they cross the line from admiration to out and out drooling.

Tags like "I'd hit that" or "Wouldn't hit it" (i know those have been removed) and comments like "I'd like to play with her..." are crossing a line.

I do wonder sometimes how some of these more obnoxious guys would feel if a gamer who was homosexual posted a list of his favorite hot gamer guys.

Unwanted sexual attention is not fun or funny. I guess if you don't get that on your own, then telling someone isn't going to help them know it.

Good luck, Lynette, I wish you well in this thread.
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Lynette
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Cavedog_pdx wrote:
So where is the hot gamer guy/husband list? I can't find it soblue


It got hidden too.
 
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I've been called a "sex toy" by one of my ex girlfriends. If the Men's Movement for the Liberation from Objectification needs a poster child just drop me line.
 
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Lynette
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DarthXaos wrote:
Meerkat wrote:

And I just don't think men get written of as even "friend" material very often for not being handsome enough. But I have heard many a man say they cannot see why anybody would hang out with an ugly chick because what is the point? But that would be another debate.


Thats because most men see friendship as a backdoor into the girl's pants. Usually doesn't work.



Sadly so very true Darth... and thus they also when it fails enough times start to erroneously see friend status as a block to into her pants. Which adds to confusion and issues for both genders.

Many "friendships" progress into sexual relationships. But usually only if they are REAL friendships not play acting in an attempt to get in through the back door.

And not all genuine friendships make such a progression. Most don't. Nobody with a healthy active social life could sleep with everybody they actually liked even if they where so inclined. Who would have the time?
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I would like to add to Jatoha's excellent comments that women:

"should be happy if men pay them special attention"

Yeah, right. Because if men don't pay me any attention, I fail as a woman and a person. shake

And it's not like you can't see MUCH, MUCH more everywhere else on the internet!
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AT 22 wrote:
I've been called a "sex toy" by one of my ex girlfriends. If the Men's Movement for the Liberation from Objectification needs a poster child just drop me line.

Lucky you!
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Meerkat wrote:
So now looking at the male/female issue at hand. Not only do the majority of men NOT mind being objectified... the positively relish the thought/idea of it.


If you're so sure of that what makes you so sure that women don't relish it equally? Or is this just another stereotype of yours that we're supposed to accept as fact?
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pdoherty wrote:
Meerkat wrote:
So now looking at the male/female issue at hand. Not only do the majority of men NOT mind being objectified... the positively relish the thought/idea of it.


If you're so sure of that what makes you so sure that women don't relish it equally? Or is this just another stereotype of yours that we're supposed to accept as fact?


If it's any help, I don't relish it. And the women on this site haven't exactly been queuing around the block to say how much they'd like to be featured in hot geeklists. Some have said that they don't personally object to the existence of such lists- that's as good as it's got. Rather more have made their objections to the whole principle quite clear.

This is the infuriating thing about this particular debate- when we speak up, we're officious and interfering, when we don't speak up our silence is taken as tacit consent.

You wouldn't believe how uninteresting arguing sexual politics on the internet is. I'm sure I'm not the only woman here who got bored of it years ago. The only good reason for getting involved at all is that if we don't people think we aren't bothered by this locker room stuff. I don't expect for one moment to change anyone's mind but I'm not going to be classed as one of the women who "obviously don't object" because we've kept quiet.
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Jatoha wrote:
I'm so tired of this issue and yet I here I post....

I can't figure out why, when people know they are doing something that bothers other people, they keep doing it.

If a guy told me he didn't want to be called 'boy' I can't imagine continuing to call him 'boy'
and telling him that he ought to just 'get over it'
and he's being 'puritan'
and 'politically correct'
and he's too sensitive
and blah and blah and blah....

And if I did continue to call him 'boy' after he's made it clear that he doesn't like being called 'boy', then shouldn't he perceive my actions as deliberately combative?


Problem with your little analogy is you calling him "boy" is in no way analogous to us having a thread for ourselves called "Hot Gamer Wives" that, barring any action from you to go there, you never need to see. The guy you're calling "boy" has little choice but to hear you, but you can just NOT GO TO THE THREAD and stop foisting your neuroses on the rest of us.

See the difference?
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Jatoha wrote:
I do wonder sometimes how some of these more obnoxious guys would feel if a gamer who was homosexual posted a list of his favorite hot gamer guys.


We wouldn't care, because we wouldn't click to visit it.

Jatoha wrote:
Unwanted sexual attention is not fun or funny. I guess if you don't get that on your own, then telling someone isn't going to help them know it.


How is a woman's picture posted by her husband (ostensibly with her permission) "unwanted sexual attention"?
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Men can relish being sexually objectified because for them its slumming. Once it's over, they can go back to being men. Women, whether they profess to enjoy it or not, don't really ever get to stop being seen as sexual objects. I imagine having to be reminded of this on a freaking board games website can be a little much sometimes.
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Shushnik wrote:
travistdale wrote:
Men can relish being sexually objectified because for them its slumming. Once it's over, they can go back to being men. Women, whether they profess to enjoy it or not, don't really ever get to stop being seen as sexual objects. I imagine having to be reminded of this on a freaking board games website can be a little much sometimes.


That attitude is two decades outdated. Chisled male underwear models are just as objectifying as stick thin female ones, and almost as prevelant nowdays. Male physical objectifying has made up huge grounds compared to the female dominated ratio that used to be in place. I'd admit it hasn't quite tied yet, but it really isn't that far behind.


Sorry, I call BS on that. Look at a magazine stand. What is the ratio of naked or nearly naked men to women on the covers? How many men are placed in sexually submissive poses? How much catcalling and sexually-tinged harassment does a typical man experience on the street every day? How much does a women? Sure, men are more objectified today than they were twenty years ago, but to pretend that it's approaching any where near parity is a joke.
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I think all the proof you need is all the "male enhancement" ads.

I mean, who buys that crap?
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Shushnik wrote:

To be less snarky, I absolutely believe that parity is being approached. There is huge drive for men to look chisled, tall, handsome, and have a full head of hair. If there wasn't Rogaine would have failed, Tom Cruise would be poor because he has no acting talent and is nuttier-than-squirrel-shit crazy, and "male enhancement" ads wouldn't exist.


Tom Cruise is 5'7" So, obviously, you must be wrong about everything.
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pdoherty wrote:

Problem with your little analogy is you calling him "boy" is in no way analogous to us having a thread for ourselves called "Hot Gamer Wives" that, barring any action from you to go there, you never need to see.

What if the thread was titled, "African American gamers that look like Monkeys."

Do you think the average gamer wants to come to a community gaming site and see such threads even if they don't click on them?

If not, would you then argue that the admins need to come up with a special forum entitled, "Racism, Sexism and Intolerance" with the subtitle, "Feel free to promote it all here" just so you'd have a place to go without disturbing anyone?

Tim
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armor_11 wrote:
pdoherty wrote:

Problem with your little analogy is you calling him "boy" is in no way analogous to us having a thread for ourselves called "Hot Gamer Wives" that, barring any action from you to go there, you never need to see.

What if the thread was titled, "African American gamers that look like Monkeys."

Do you think the average gamer wants to come to a community gaming site and see such threads even if they don't click on them?

"hot gamer wives" might not be in the best taste, but does not compare to what you suggest. The "average gamer" is just like the "average human" I guess. If someone finds such a title offensive, maybe he should stay off the internet and never switch a tv on.
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travistdale wrote:
Shushnik wrote:

To be less snarky, I absolutely believe that parity is being approached. There is huge drive for men to look chisled, tall, handsome, and have a full head of hair. If there wasn't Rogaine would have failed, Tom Cruise would be poor because he has no acting talent and is nuttier-than-squirrel-shit crazy, and "male enhancement" ads wouldn't exist.


Tom Cruise is 5'7" So, obviously, you must be wrong about everything.


Look, he disagrees with you, and you are not going to make him agree. Posting the kind of spurious argument that I just quoted won't get you much sympathy from the RSP crowd either.

So I wonder,why are you still posting in this thread?
 
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