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Subject: Question about reneging.. rss

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sunday silence
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I just did a solo run though of this system which I must say is incredibly creative. But I was wondering about reneging and how to enforce this? IT seems a major problem if people are competive. For instance, lets say I only have the Mob/Caeser left in my Caesar suit..Someone throws a 6. I want to hold this card. So I lay off and keep the card in my hand. 15 min. later the game ends, how is anyone going to know that in round 2 I reneged?
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Nate Walker
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sundaysilence wrote:
But I was wondering about reneging and how to enforce this? IT seems a major problem if people are competive.


Competitive? Seems more like your opponent is a cheater.
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Travis Worthington
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You'll have to trust your opponent a bit.
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Karl Hiesterman
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That's called "cheating at cards" and where I come from people would occasionally shoot the blackguard. In fact, we sometimes still do...
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sunday silence
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Why would I be worried about that? YOu wouldnt know if I had done it anyway...

There is no real way to go back several hands and identify the reneging. Correct? It would seem very difficult to play this game in a competitive setting say for instance in a tournament...

Maybe you dont see this as a problem. I do. It seems odd to me that no one seemed to mention it in the reviews, session reports...
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Travis Worthington
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sundaysilence wrote:
Why would I be worried about that? YOu wouldnt know if I had done it anyway...

There is no real way to go back several hands and identify the reneging. Correct? It would seem very difficult to play this game in a competitive setting say for instance in a tournament...

Maybe you dont see this as a problem. I do. It seems odd to me that no one seemed to mention it in the reviews, session reports...


I was certainly aware that this is a possibility as it came up in playtesting, and while I feel that this would be a excellent betting game (especially with the scoring variant I included) I really didn't think that it would become one.

I was reading a review of strategy in shadows over camelot where they suggest that a cell phone camera be used to document discards to prevent illegal moves. I think that is extreme but if you truly find yourself playing the game in that compettive of a situtation then it might be worth investing in.

In the mean time I am looking into RFID chips :D
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sunday silence
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ONe thought that occurred to me was that you could use chips of some sort to mark when a player was out of suit, but of course that wont work when the hands are re-dealt. Not sure what RFID is...an implanted chip?

I am thinking that someone could even do it quite by accident, and several hands later neither that player or the others would even be aware of it..

You mention a scoring variant and another reviewer mentioned "basic rules" is there a set of advanced rules for this game that have not been commented upon?
 
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Travis Worthington
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sundaysilence wrote:

You mention a scoring variant and another reviewer mentioned "basic rules" is there a set of advanced rules for this game that have not been commented upon?


The game comes with two extra variants, A drafting version that replaces the shuffle between hands and an alternative scoring mechanism for playing multiple rounds.

As it is a card game I do suggest playing more than 1 round in a sitting - each round takes from 10-15 minutes.
 
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sunday silence
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So when you say "round" you mean what? a hand is three tricks for one leader...A game is 3 hands for one leader. But what is a round?

I was thinking of a different scoring mechanism as I was driving around today. Did you ever think of just having counting cards that count for points rather than counting tricks per se? E.g. scoring in pinochle.

You have quite a number of innovative ideas going on in here and I am not quite sure they are all meshing with one another. For instance the concept of pledging and the carryover; these are similar ideas and not sure you need two different things when one mechanic (simply carrying over) would not only do the job of both but would also increase player choice (ie. one could release a card that they were going to pledge).

Then the carryover system starts to impinge on the trumping/ruffing aspect as we mentioned in terms of reneging..

As it is now the pledging system where you are committed does not seem to allow much choice and it seems you end up in one of two positions either you have a seven or you go for 3 + 5 or perhaps neither...
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sunday silence
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I dont want to sound like Im beating down on the game, although it is prolly inevitable. I am working on a similar system where the players are basically bidding to play certain factions and have thought about this problem for a while. It occurred to me that yours may be the first published game to have hidden identities via bidding. There is a list here of hidden identity games but none of them use the bidding mechanic..

http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/6809/item/108315#item10831...

As I worked on this problem, I was trying to do something similar where players would "build" or pledge as you say, a couple of cards after each round. At first it was that you had to build x number of cards. And then there were bonuses if you built the right faction early on...

The more I thought about it, making builds that you cant undo is effectively the same as carrying over cards. But if you simply carried them over w/o building them then you still had the option later of dumping them and building over with different cards....

I finally wound up with dealing 8 card, play 4, keep four. next round draw four play four. Repeat as necessary.
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Travis Worthington
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I was inspired by K├Ânig von Siam, in that game players select faction cubes to build support over the course of the game. Its a great way to build tension as the decision to support the faction means you reduce its strength (and you can also reduce the strength of a faction that your opponent is trying to have win. I think that that blind pledging in Triumvirate means that you can also bluff, making your opponent believe you are supporting one faction, but in reality you support another - this is pretty much required to win if you have a marginal hand.

Getting the game to balance is tricky - a lot of the rules morphed during playtesting because of this.

Good luck on your game - you might want to post in the game design forum, its been a great help to me.
 
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sunday silence
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you know one thing you could do that would not change the game as it exists now was that if players had to carry over say 4 cards each hand. These would be placed face down and set aside. This would take care of the reneging problem as players would either play out the entire hand or else simply reveal and turn in the cards in hand that did not get played...

THis would also provide interesting oppurtunities for the pledging as well as simply holding out cards strategically at the expense of pledging. Players would be able to revisit/change the entire set of four cards at the start of each hand (if that is not clear).

THis whole thing where you can build one at a time, but no more. Not sure that really adds anything to this game. I guess that sorts of bugs me. Maybe it's just a me thing...

Are you comfortable in sharing the alternative scoring mechanism? Not sure if that is part the marketing strategy here..
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Tony Chen
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Quote:
Why would I be worried about that? YOu wouldnt know if I had done it anyway...

Actually, I would. Unless you stuff it as a pledge before the game ends.
 
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sunday silence
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Not sure I follow you. It's been a week or more so maybe I am forgeting but arent some cards carried over to the next hand? So I could hold over a card in the first hand and it wouldnt see the light of day until several hands later. Right? Or am I forgettign something?

[edit follows]

For example the rules description here says you can play as little as three cards in a hand with subsequent carryover of the rest of your hand:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/430646
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Tony Chen
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So?

If I play a yellow card, and I know that I don't have the yellow mob myself (I would know this), then you must have it. You can either play another yellow card (legal), or play a card of another suit. If you play another suit, either you have already stuffed the yellow mob into the pledge, or you are cheating. So if you ever play the yellow mob afterwards, or the yellow mob doesn't end up in your pledge at the end of the game, we'd know that you cheated.

It's simple really.
 
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sunday silence
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Couldnt a yellow card be dealt to you on a subsequent hand? I have a feeling I must be missing something...
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Travis Worthington
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sundaysilence wrote:
Couldnt a yellow card be dealt to you on a subsequent hand? I have a feeling I must be missing something...


DrunkenKoala is correct for the drafting variant that he prefers to play.


You are correct that the base set of rules would make it questionable as to whether someone cheated, the cards could have been one of the 3 set aside in the hand.
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sunday silence
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Can you describe the drafting variant? Maybe that is a more challenging way to play..
 
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Travis Worthington
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sundaysilence wrote:
Can you describe the drafting variant? Maybe that is a more challenging way to play..


For $20 you too can get a copy of the game!
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sunday silence
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how about someone reviewing the full blown variant (or advanced variant if that's what it is). We have like 7 fantastic reviews and no one has even commented on the advanced version...
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Ulrich Roth
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T Worthington wrote:
You'll have to trust your opponent a bit.


I could not agree more - as far as playing with friends & family is concerned.

But it would be a shame if this interesting game were unavailable for "serious" competition, due to the problem quite rightly pointed out by sunday silence.

If I were the designer I would probably try to solve the problem by integrating "reneging" into the game system (and the theme) somehow, e.g. something along the lines of the following:

"Reneging" (not following suit when you could do so) is technically allowed by the game rules, but considered an act of "treason" in terms of theme.
If the other player suspects this sort of foul play, he can "challenge" the card just played and demand to see the opponent's hand.

A public "scandal" ensues, with two possible outcomes:

a) The suspect turns out to be innocent:

The suspect's play stands and as compensation for public exposure (showing his cards) he gets to either place a consulate in the colour of his choice in the Curia Hostilia OR remove one from there.

b) The suspicion of treason is confirmed:

The treacherously played card must be replaced by one of the correct suit.
The challenger gets to either place a consulate in the colour of his choice in the Curia Hostilia OR remove one from there (make this TWO consulates if stronger discouragement of reneging is desired).

Obviously, such a "scandal" may well decide the whole game immediately, which theme-wise doesn't seem inappropriate.

These are just a few ideas off the top of my head; I'm sure there are many other possibilities.

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