JohnnY C
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This is a set of patch rules that has been evolving among a large player-group from somewhere back in 2005, right after the release. Much of the serious errors in the game were fixed with the expansion, but it was still a long way to go. SA balances the game, increases the dynamic, making games shorter and opens for vast new number of strategies with the new unit and tech balance. It also comes with a handful pre-made maps (and following rules) that are designed for action-packed games, in high contrast to the turtling-maps provided by FFG. There's also guidelines for the fantastic strategical experience of 2-player games.

EDIT: SA page-in-progress, with SA 4.2beta added. Supports most of SotT.


----------------------

Last SA-Thread @ti3wiki.org

There will also be more to come on the latest changes.
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Ian
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Re: Shattered Ascension v3.7
Very cool. This makes me want to give the game another try after giving up on it. Maybe these fixes will make it worth playing.
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Re: Shattered Ascension v3.7
Ian; Many people have given up on this game, which is very sad. It's kind of almost right there, like a perfect car missing a wheel or something. The game, with some changes (and understanding of how they affect the game), will give you endless of good gaming experiences. I hope this can help, as it have done for many others.

SA might look very heavy in mods, and sometimes mysterious maybe, but it's really intuitive when you start playing. It's kinda like how ti3 could/should have been.


Phil; I'm all for the expansion, and that Corey dude at FFG have my sincere kudos for it. It made the game WORK, in contrast to the the horrendous first box. But sadly I can make a very clear list of things even the expansion did wrong too. I'm not saying I'm a better game designer, I'm just saying that while they had a dead-line, I've gone around thinking about and playing this game only for years and years
As a computer game needs a patch, sometimes a boardgame does as well. And here is one.
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JohnnY C
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Re: Shattered Ascension v3.7
If any of you get to try the Ultimatum map, with the new Objectives up, the race tech aquisition rules, all the game options and all in all a full blown SA game, I guarantee you a great time.

Here's some comments on the pre-set maps
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Re: Patch rule-set: Shattered Ascension v3.8
No problem! It's cool if I can help people get more out of their game.


I've uploaded a new version above. Mostly lay-out changes.
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Re: Patch rule-set: Shattered Ascension v3.8
Hmm.
I like some of your ideas, but overall it feels like a random and mixed collection of house-rules than a cohesive attempt to improve the game (the "random and mixed" feel is not ameliorated by the pdf layout).
Some of the changes I like, some I can see the reason for but I wouldn't use myself (a lot of these seem to be for thematic, rather than game-balance reasons, and I find TI to have plenty of theme with occasional lapses in gameplay as it is), some I can't understand the reason for at all.

Comments of most of the changes:

* Two secret objectives/ discard one- this sounds like a good idea (the relative difficulties of SOs can vary a lot), but I'm puzzled as to why it occurs before galaxy-construction, seating, or race-selection. Because of this you have *no* information available on which to base your choice, and so can only choose whichever SO is "easier" in the abstract. In other words, given any choice of two specific SOs, you will always make the same choice.

* I don't understand the emphasis (bold and italics) on "clockwise" and "highest". It's not as if it makes any difference one way or the other, so why stress it as if it was really important to get it right?

* I don't understand the race-selection system at all. I can't see any real advantage to having a race hidden until the strategy phase (the advantage is absolutely nil if you're not building the galaxy), and allowing people to select races freely doesn't seem like a very good idea, as some are quite a bit better than others. Certainly the advantage gained from having a very good race far outweighs any possible advantage from having your race secret for a short time, so I can see no reason to take the random selection.

* Bid for speaker token: This one I do like, and think I might try. I don't think being the initial speaker is a major advantage if not playing with Imperial I, but it certainly is one.

* Normalise TG. This makes even less sense. The effect of this rule is solely to give every player one trade good, as one player (the Speaker) will have 0; everyone else will have the same number as the Speaker's bid. Why do this, and why, if you want to start everyone with 1 TG, word it in such a confusing and unintuitive way?

* 3 objectives start in play: Yes, I like this. Starting with only one makes the early game rather dull, particularly as Buereaucracy is rarely taken early.

* Picking-up cargo. This rule is just stupid. I can't understand what anyone sees in this. It invalidates so much of the game (transporting stuff around) and makes Fighters far better, as if they weren't good enough. I actually wonder if I'm misunderstanding what you mean by this: if so, the rule is badly-worded.

* A number of very minor changes that might almost be considered clarifications: no problems with these.

* Bombarding to neutral status: Seems reasonable. Attacking enemy planets without ground forces is normally total useless. With this rule, it's still bad, but at least worth considering.

* Political card changes: I like all of these.

* Spend Resources for Trade Goods: Not keen. Resources are already much better than Influence, and the early game is already slow and dull compared to the late game. Why institute a rule that makes both of these worse?

* Facilities and space mines: Can't really comment, as I've never used either, but I think the facility change at least looks like a positive step.

* Changes to Dreadnaughts and War Suns: Mixed feelings. I agree both of these ships esp. Dreadnaughts) are too weak, but your changes both strengthen and weaken them, which feels odd. I particularly don't like the increased production required to build them (which negates the only real advantage they had in the first place), the dice-reduction for taking hits (using Sustain Damage unless you have to is already very risky, thanks to Direct Hit!- why make it an even worse strategy?), and the 3-hits for a war-sun (hard to keep track of). I do approve of increasing Dreadnaught dice to 2 and allowing them to Bombard without invasion (the distinction between Dreadnaught and War Sun bombarding was always fiddly, confusing and unnecessary).

* Gen Synth: I don't like Shock Troops much (too fiddly), and I never saw anything wrong with Gen Synth in the first place.

* Micro Tech: As I've noted, I don't like the Resources to TG rule, but with that as a given, I don't see any problem with this.

* Int Economy: Now this *is* interesting. Integrated Economy always was far too weak. My own approach to it is to delete the word "activated", which makes it a lot stronger. This rule intrigues me, and I wouldn't be averse to giving it a try. My main concern is that, because it essentially removes the constraint of production capacity to all intents and purposes, it actually makes fighters (already very good), even better.

* Nano-Tech: Nano-tech doesn't specifically render you immune to Direct Hit! anyway, it makes your Dreadnaughts and War Suns immune to action cards (there are others- Lucky Shot, for example). I assume you mean to remove that whole clause from the card, not specifically make Direct Hit! an exception.

* Fleet-Logistics: This I like a lot. Fleet Logistics is one of the hardest techs in the game to get (tied with Advanced Fighters) and it was always much too weak. I wonder if you could even get away with removing the "once per round" clause, or if that would be broken.

* Assault Cannons: Don't really see the reason for this, but don't really object to it either.

* Non-overlapping weapons: Don't like this. Too complicated and fiddly and nothing to do with game balance. Also, why "Graviton Laser System", but not "Magen Defence Grid"?

* Races: As I don't have SE, I can't really comment on the racial techs. I approve of nerfing Yssaril, especially their starting units, but it seems odd to give them a tech a long way up the tree. I don't see the need to nerf L1Z1X, particularly not in such a way as to remove (and invert!!) one of their racial abilities. I can only suppose it's related to the Dreadnaught improvements, but I don't think they were ever all that good in the first place. The extra XXXcha ability makes Resources better at the expense of Influence again, which I don't like at all.

* Agendas from the deck: I like this; it means as long as you have at least one Political card, you always have a choice.

* Bureaucracy change: I think this actually makes B. too good. Granted it was a bit weak before. 3 cards *or* bottom-of-the-deck would have been an improvement, I think. But I may be wrong.

* Warfare/Dip: Nod.

* Action cards: I don't recognise all of these, and can't be bothered to look them up, but while I agree Signal Jamming was too good, I don't think actually hurts it much. However, every little helps. The change to Rare Mineral I can understand- it stops it being useless late game, but it was quite good already.

* Leaders and Distant Suns: Most of these I think are too complicated and fiddly and I don't really see the reason for. I quite like letting Diplomats allow other fleets through them, and the Natural Wealth tweak intrigues me. I *do* agree with removing the idiotic Lazax-survivors-probe rule, which was one of the most head-scratching rules from the base game.

Oh, and I appreciate the pre-made maps. I haven't tried any out yet, but from what I hear from others they're well-constructed (and they look it, at a glance).

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Re: Patch rule-set: Shattered Ascension v3.8
Thanks for your reply.

All these things are explained in detail in the original thread. For example, the un-stacking of weapons are not for the sake of making a rule, just for the three balancing adjustments it results in.

There IS an advantage having your race hidding while bidding for home system. I think you misunderstaood this.
You also misunderstood the normalization. Everyone shouldn't start with 1 TG. The one with the LEAST should have 1 TG. That means, after bidding, instead of one starting with 100 TG and one starting with 103 TG, they start with 1 and 3 respectively. It's pretty simple. My example was extreme, but functional.

I could write a book about the rest of the things, but I urge you to read the thread instead.
I don't frequent this board so much, but are hanging a lot about ti2wiki.org. A lot of knowledgable people hangs out there.





Here's an update.url=http://home.online.no/~eld-sko/SA3-95beta.pdf
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Re: Patch rule-set: Shattered Ascension v3.8
This is the newest and sweetest version.

SA beta version 3.95 updated PDF file
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Re: Patch rule-set: Shattered Ascension v3.8
Congratulations for your works.
Very Interesting set of rules. I particularly appreciated the 2pl option

I have a few questions and comments.

1/ Sometimes the rules look like a summary for those who have followed the discussions since the beginning on the forums, In particular the starting position bid in preset map isn't very clear.

2/ I appreciated very much that you provide an easy to print PDF file in B&W. Neverheless although I think it's a good idea to print many preset map on 1 page ( it will be tedious to need 1 page per scenario), the small preset map are almost unreadable at this size, mostly due to the detailled Gfx on each tile, would'nt it be better for readability to have a schematic description of the preset map giving the name of the planet and their value, plus the extra stuff like Wormhole or relic tokens. without the detailled bakground gfx.
I know that this will requires some works.

3/ About the preset map scenario, as I understand they have me made to favor more dynamic type of play, Could you suggest a recommended VP's goal range for each scenario, based on your experience. As the number of VPs could have a significant impact of the style of play.

4/ Beside the options specifically offered by Shattered Ascencion, which options from the base game and the shattered empire expansion do you consider as standard rules for Shattered Ascencion.

5/ Do you have any idea about when you will release SA 4.0.
I wish to print print all the files for the new components in color on god quality paper, but as this is rather expensive, I will raher wait a little if a major revision is on the way.

Thanks very much.


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Re: Patch rule-set: Shattered Ascension v3.8
very good variant for multi players and the 2 players variant works very well, of course you will lose the political aspect of the multiplayers game.

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Re: Patch rule-set: Shattered Ascension v3.98 (new version!)
deltarn wrote:
Congratulations for your works.
Very Interesting set of rules. I particularly appreciated the 2pl option

I have a few questions and comments.

1/ Sometimes the rules look like a summary for those who have followed the discussions since the beginning on the forums, In particular the starting position bid in preset map isn't very clear.


In a way, it is. I would love to add in background information and reason for each of the mods, but I can only use this much space.
However, I aim to make it understandable and workable for anyone reading it first time, so if the bidding system is unclear, I will have to elaborate. Can you be precise about what is unclear?

Quote:
2/ I appreciated very much that you provide an easy to print PDF file in B&W. Neverheless although I think it's a good idea to print many preset map on 1 page ( it will be tedious to need 1 page per scenario), the small preset map are almost unreadable at this size, mostly due to the detailled Gfx on each tile, would'nt it be better for readability to have a schematic description of the preset map giving the name of the planet and their value, plus the extra stuff like Wormhole or relic tokens. without the detailled bakground gfx.
I know that this will requires some works.

You are probably right. Right now there is a hassle recognizing the tiles, even though its possible with trained eyes. That's why I have written the link to the full scale pictures on the web as well. If I get time I might try to make a schematic.

Quote:
3/ About the preset map scenario, as I understand they have me made to favor more dynamic type of play, Could you suggest a recommended VP's goal range for each scenario, based on your experience. As the number of VPs could have a significant impact of the style of play.

That varies, actually. Some days you want a quick game, some days and epic game. As long as all the players know the VP range before start, it should be fair. In normal games we mostly use 8 VP as win, and 12 in more epic games.

Quote:
4/ Beside the options specifically offered by Shattered Ascencion, which options from the base game and the shattered empire expansion do you consider as standard rules for Shattered Ascencion.

Done in the new version, if I understand you correctly. I've given a recommendation of what to use, at least.

5/ Do you have any idea about when you will release SA 4.0.
I wish to print print all the files for the new components in color on god quality paper, but as this is rather expensive, I will raher wait a little if a major revision is on the way.

Thanks very much.
[/q]

3.98 is out, and is to be considered as a beta for 4.0. When I have gone through sufficient playtesting and feedback on the forums, I'll upload 4.0. Thanks for your patience.
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Re: Patch rule-set: Shattered Ascension v3.98 (new version!)
PsiComa wrote:


In a way, it is. I would love to add in background information and reason for each of the mods, but I can only use this much space.
However, I aim to make it understandable and workable for anyone reading it first time, so if the bidding system is unclear, I will have to elaborate. Can you be precise about what is unclear?


Be assured that I understand time and space constraint, the work allready done is truly great.

I think that a simple top-down layout would be clearer (than an FFG style' one gulp) .

Including the various options at the bottom of page 1 in the step by step sequence would be also help.

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Re: Patch rule-set: Shattered Ascension v4.0 (new version!)
4.0 is out
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Art Bugorski
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Re: Patch rule-set: Shattered Ascension v4.0 (new version!)
You should consider posting the latest rules PDF in the files section since I'd never think to look for them in the forums. That said: thanks to Google I found it.

Btw, why doesthe TI3Wiki still point to the old version?
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Re: Patch rule-set: Shattered Ascension v4.0 (new version!)
I'm almost never at BBG, so I've missed the files section. I'll look for it.

Also, I don't know why the wiki points to the old version. The thread I maintain always points to the newest, though.

There are some vast improvements and cool new options coming with 4.1, actually. Thought 4.0 would be the last one, but things are developing quickly in the community.
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Art Bugorski
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Re: Patch rule-set: Shattered Ascension v4.0 (new version!)
I've uploaded it to http://tinyurl.com/ti3sav4 since it was so hard to find.
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Re: Patch rule-set: Shattered Ascension v4.0 (new version!)
aaxiom wrote:
AngryStarAnarchy wrote:
I've uploaded it to http://tinyurl./com/ti3sav4 since it was so hard to find.

Broken link. FYI.


Thanks, typo fixed.
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Re: Patch rule-set: Shattered Ascension v4.0 (new version!)
yoacusna wrote:
Hmm.
I like some of your ideas, but overall it feels like a random and mixed collection of house-rules than a cohesive attempt to improve the game

In my opinion, this is the result of fixing nearly all parts of the game, so either you get a list of house rules, or rewrite rules completely.
After reading all your comments I would say that there was not many of ideas which you did not like:)
You complained three times on things which made already strong fighters stronger. I guess that's because you're playing without SE expansion (as you stated this, though you freely comment on some of SE stuff). SE makes fighers much weaker because of Automated Defense Turrets. Note that SA rules are explicitly balanced for game with SE, using it on game without SE will not give you very good results.
About picking up cargo, original rules are crap. Difficult to understand, even more difficult to remember, illogical exceptional cases. SA rules make it simple and clear - really big relief when you don't need to constantly consult rulebook anymore.
And I agree, some changes are thematic, but they make game much more pleasant to play. This is the ultimate game and I like ultimate experience so I'm thumbs up for nearly all of the stuff found in SA. I would not bother fixing other games so much.
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Re: Patch rule-set: Shattered Ascension v4.0 (new version!)
PsiComa are you working on balancing of Shards of Throne? I remember your negative views on ti3wiki, but I think expansion still has some interesting stuff no matter what crap FFG are doing. Probably only worthy stuff could be balanced and other officially thrown away.
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Re: Patch rule-set: Shattered Ascension v4.0 (new version!)
weidox wrote:
PsiComa are you working on balancing of Shards of Throne? I remember your negative views on ti3wiki, but I think expansion still has some interesting stuff no matter what crap FFG are doing. Probably only worthy stuff could be balanced and other officially thrown away.


Alas, I don't think PsiComa really frequents BGG - his last login was 5 months ago according to his profile page.

With the hack of the ti3wiki and it subsequently being pulled completely down, I don't know any other place that he was posting those rules, or coordinating them, or anything.

That said, my regular group has probably done 10 or so games of SA pre-Shards, and 2 with Shards (plus another run next week) and it seems to work reasonably well. Our take on Shards has been:

- Prelim objectives are out, draw-two-discard-one secret is the way to go to ensure most people have a shot at their secret VP.

- Final Frontier is a bit iffy - we've started playing completely without distant suns just for the slight reduction in game time.

- Mechanized Units are fun, but where you place them is very significant. Offensively they're super powerful, we're considering doing something about that (either they don't participate as attackers, or they need to be first casualties) but haven't settled on anything yet.

- Flagships add a bit more uniqueness to the races, though some are definitely more powerful than others.

- Mercenaries don't see much action (imo, less than they should).

- Extra racial tech? Sign me up.

- Political Intrigue is an entertaining sub-game, take it or leave it.
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Shawn Woods
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Re: Patch rule-set: Shattered Ascension v4.0 (new version!)
Does anyone have a link for the newest version of Shattered Ascension? I have Beta 3.93 and I read that 4.0 (or 4.1) is out now. All of the posted links here and on other sites appear to be down.
 
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Re: Patch rule-set: Shattered Ascension v4.0 (new version!)
baconcow wrote:
Does anyone have a link for the newest version of Shattered Ascension? I have Beta 3.93 and I read that 4.0 (or 4.1) is out now. All of the posted links here and on other sites appear to be down.


www.simonkamber.dk/ti3 has both th finished 4.0 and the 4.2 beta.
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Re: Patch rule-set: Shattered Ascension v4.0 (new version!)
yoacusna wrote:
Hmm.
I like some of your ideas, but overall it feels like a random and mixed collection of house-rules than a cohesive attempt to improve the game (the "random and mixed" feel is not ameliorated by the pdf layout).


I realise that it looks much like a mishmash of random things, at least at first glance. When writing the rules as a patch, and not from the start, it's a bit hard to avoid this.

However, if you take a quick read on the upcoming page-in-progress (see About and Design Notes), you'll see I've written quite the essay on the various changes and explained how exactly I find these to improve the game (rewritten lately, for better formulations). This is all backed by an obsene number of playtests and the fact that many other gaming groups uses these rules as well.


ps; you can check out version 4.2 on that page, compatible with most of SotT also. I'm hoping to have all graphics uploaded in within some weeks.
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