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Subject: Road Attacks rss

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Tony Chen
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Can a road attack be declared and used as a feint against defense locale, even if the attacking units would've had to stop at the attack locale even if the defense locale was empty because there was another adjacent locale occupied by enemy units?

But if yes, then wouldn't all road attacks be illegal because by definition they are all adjacent to an enemy locale and therefore couldn't have moved into it?
 
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Mark Buetow
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drunkenKOALA wrote:
Can a road attack be declared and used as a feint against defense locale, even if the attacking units would've had to stop at the attack locale even if the defense locale was empty because there was another adjacent locale occupied by enemy units?


No. They have to stop.
Quote:

But if yes, then wouldn't all road attacks be illegal because by definition they are all adjacent to an enemy locale and therefore couldn't have moved into it?


That only applies to a corps of two or more units. Most often, though not exclusively, a road attack is made by a single cav unit.
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Tony Chen
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Thanks. I know they have to stop--all road attacks must stop. But can then even declare an attack threat, and then use that as a feint? They do stop with a feint.
 
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Mark Buetow
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No. Because you have to stop, you wouldn't be able to move into the locale. Remember, it's only a feint if the Defender does not retreat. If he retreats, you move on into his locale, which you could not do if you had to stop.
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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drunkenKOALA wrote:
I know they have to stop--all road attacks must stop.

This is not quite right; if the defender retreats from a road attack, the attacking units can continue moving, and can make additional attacks. This is at the top of the center column on page 7.
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Rachel Simmons
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"An attack is when pieces attempt to move
into an enemy-occupied locale. Attacks occur
during movement and are part of movement."

This is the most basic attack rule. If piece has had to stop moving in one locale, there is no way it can attack into different locale.
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Chris Sowdon
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Good Day Mr. Simmons,

How is "The Guns of Gettysburg" coming along?

It's been awhile since you updated the Dev Diary.

edited for spelling: There's no H at the end of Gettysburg!
 
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Rachel Simmons
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Gern44 wrote:
How is "The Guns of Gettysburg" coming along?

It's been awhile since you updated the Dev Diary.


Playtesting is grinding along. The testers are troopers, I'll tell you that. I have another diary entry in progress, but haven't been happy with it so I haven't published it. (Forget about getting the game ready, I can't even get a diary entry about the game ready.)
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Chris Sowdon
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LOL, well, thank you very much for taking the time to respond. Please keep chugging along so that we may reap the benefits of your hard work.
 
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Jim Cote
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Wait. Does this mean that you can never make an attack declaration against a locale with 2 enemy units if your only attack option is a road move? You have to stop when you become adjacent to the locale you want to attack, so you can't enter it. I thought I understood this stuff, but my fifth pass through the rules has me confused again.
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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ekted wrote:
Wait. Does this mean that you can never make an attack declaration against a locale with 2 enemy units if your only attack option is a road move? You have to stop when you become adjacent to the locale you want to attack

Malacandra wrote:
That only applies to a corps of two or more units. Most often, though not exclusively, a road attack is made by a single cav unit.
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Jim Cote
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I don't see how that answers my question.
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Mark Buetow
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ekted wrote:
I don't see how that answers my question.


If you attack along the road with ONE unit, the restriction does not apply; the unit does not have to stop adjacent to the intended locale and may procede with the attack. Of course, if the Defender defends, it'll have to be a feint. If he retreats, then you get the locale.
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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ekted wrote:
I don't see how that answers my question.


It answers your question because a single cavalry unit is not required to stop when it moves adjacent to a corps with two or more units. Here's your question:

ekted wrote:
Does this mean that you can never make an attack declaration against a locale with 2 enemy units if your only attack option is a road move?


The only way you can threaten a road move is with cavalry, and a single cavalry unit can make a threat against a locale with 2 enemy units. (Maybe you did what I do all too often, think one thing and type something else...)
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Jim Cote
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Ok then. Say I have 2 cavalry. I make an attack declaration on a locale with a 2-unit corps in it. They retreat. Can I move both cavalry (by road) into the defense local?
 
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Garry Haggerty
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ekted wrote:
Ok then. Say I have 2 cavalry. I make an attack declaration on a locale with a 2-unit corps in it. They retreat. Can I move both cavalry (by road) into the defense local?


If your two cavalry were in the same corps, only one of them could make the attack and enter the defense locale. You could do this either with a Unit Move (one cavalry detaches itself from the corps and makes the road move) or with a Corps Move (one cavalry unit is detached then the corps commander with the other cavalry unit makes the road move) when you make your attack declaration.

My note above is wrong, as kuhrusty notes below and Bowen confirms later. The answer to ekted's question is 'yes'.

If your two cavalry are independent, or each is in a corps by itself (i.e., you have two cavalry corps, each with only a single cavalry unit), the answer is yes. However, two independent units could not make the attack together: one would make the attack by road and the other would follow by road movement using a separate Unit Move command.

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Rusty McFisticuffs
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G Haggerty wrote:
If your two cavalry were in the same corps, only one of them could make the attack

I think that's not quite right. The retreat happens before the move is declared, so I think a corps of two or more units is not prevented from moving into the locale by road, because there is no longer an enemy corps of two or more units in an adjacent locale at the point when the move is declared.

(Also, I think I remember hearing Bowen say something like, when the defender retreats before combat, it's as if they were never there in the first place, at least as far as their ability to impede enemy movement is concerned.)

I may be wrong about that, though.
 
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Michael Gustavsson
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I think kuhrusty´s point is correct, the retreating corps is disorganized after the retreat and thus cannot "block" the road move.
 
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Tony Chen
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Okay, so I still don't know the answer. And no it is not clear, from this thread nor the rulebook.

Say there are two enemy locales with 2 or more units, both adjacent to locale A. My 2 cavalry are also adjacent to locale A.

Can I declare threat at all?

If I can, and he retreats. What can I move in? Must I move in anything?

If I can, and he does not retreat. What can I move in to locale A? 2 cavalry, or only 1?

Now, say there is one enemy local with 2 or more units adjacent to locale A. My 2 cavalry are also adjacent to locale A.

I suppose I can declare threat.

If he retreats, I can move in anything I want?

If he does not retreat, what can I move in to locale A? 2 cavalry, or only 1?
 
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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drunkenKOALA wrote:
Say there are two enemy locales with 2 or more units, both adjacent to locale A. My 2 cavalry are also adjacent to locale A.

Can I declare threat at all?

Yes. Only a corps with two or more units has to stop when moving by road adjacent to a locale containing an enemy corps of two or more units (p. 5, upper left column), so you could attack with a single cavalry unit.

drunkenKOALA wrote:
If I can, and he retreats. What can I move in? Must I move in anything?

Yes, you must move in something; because of the other enemy corps of two or more units adjacent to locale A, you can only move a single cavalry unit through A with your attack command. After that, you can move your second cavalry unit into or through locale A with a second command.

drunkenKOALA wrote:
If I can, and he does not retreat. What can I move in to locale A? 2 cavalry, or only 1?

I think you can move 2 cavalry, since you're ending your move there. EDIT: I was wrong about that, since an attack is an attempt to move into the enemy-occupied locale, and that move would not be allowed in this case.

drunkenKOALA wrote:
Now, say there is one enemy local with 2 or more units adjacent to locale A. My 2 cavalry are also adjacent to locale A.

I suppose I can declare threat.

If he retreats, I can move in anything I want?

I believe so.

drunkenKOALA wrote:
If he does not retreat, what can I move in to locale A? 2 cavalry, or only 1?

As above, I think you can move 2 cavalry, since you're ending your move there.
 
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Jim Cote
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kuhrusty wrote:
I think that's not quite right. The retreat happens before the move is declared, so I think a corps of two or more units is not prevented from moving into the locale by road, because there is no longer an enemy corps of two or more units in an adjacent locale at the point when the move is declared.

(Also, I think I remember hearing Bowen say something like, when the defender retreats before combat, it's as if they were never there in the first place, at least as far as their ability to impede enemy movement is concerned.)

I may be wrong about that, though.

I thought I remember reading something about not being able to declare a certain kind of attack because it wouldn't be possible IF the opponent defends. Might have been exceeding the unit limit of the attack locale or something. So even if the opponent retreated, you could not claim the road attack, because IF they had to stop they would have exceeded the limit. Maybe this is a different issue, but it seems related.
 
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Rachel Simmons
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I get a lot of questions on the rules. Pretty much all the time, the rules actually do answer the question. However, the subject of corps road attacks is fairly sticky and not clearly handled in all cases. (Especially when locale capacities are involved.) The only reason I don't get burned on it more is because the problematic situations don't occur much in actual games.

However, the problems with the rules as written are not insoluble. The first principal is an action that isn't illegal is legal. The second principal is that if an action might turn out to be legal or illegal, due to factor's beyond the player's control, it is illegal. Let's examine how each principal applies:

(1) You declare an attack threat. The enemy retreats. Can you make a cavalry corps road attack move into that position, although the attack move would have been illegal if the enemy had not retreated? The answer is conditionally "Yes". Under the first principal, it is legal because there is no rule prohibiting such an attack; the rule about stopping when a cavalry corps moves adjacent to an enemy 2-unit corps doesn't apply because the enemy has already retreated.

(2) Remember in the above I said CONDITIONALLY "Yes"? Good. Now let's talk about the condition. Suppose the cavalry corps is the only unit that could make the attack threat, and that it would have to pass through a locale already containing friendly units and exceed the capacity of a locale in order to do it, and that if the enemy didn't retreat, then the cavalry would have to stop in that locale, exceeding the locale capacity. Now, such a move would be illegal because it would violate the locale capacity. In such a case, the attack threat itself would not be legal since it might result in an illegal move (violating the second principal), so the question of what would happen after it was made would not come up.

---

Does the above make your head swim a little? Quite possibly. This is why I would have done much better to have:

(1) made 2+ unit corps road movement attacks illegal, and

(2) and not allowed locale capacities to be exceeded in an attack move.

However, the official rules are what they are, and pending a second edition, I don't plan to change them. However, if you want to take the two rules I wish I had included and play with them as quasi-official optional rules, be my guest.
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Tony Chen
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I am still confused.

Quote:
I think you can move 2 cavalry, since you're ending your move there.
But the designer said:

Quote:
"An attack is when pieces attempt to move
into an enemy-occupied locale. Attacks occur
during movement and are part of movement."

This is the most basic attack rule. If piece has had to stop moving in one locale, there is no way it can attack into different locale.


They seem to contradict. If 2 cavalry has to stop at locale A, then they could not have declared an attack threat right? It seems as if road attacks can me made by only a single cavalry?

If your feint was with 2 cavalry, wouldn't that be illegal because they couldn't have moved into the enemy locale?
 
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Jim Cote
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bowen wrote:
(1) made 2+ unit corps road movement attacks illegal...

Just to be clear: They ARE illegal against locales containing a corps of 2+ units, right?
 
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Tony Chen
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ekted wrote:
bowen wrote:
(1) made 2+ unit corps road movement attacks illegal...

Just to be clear: They ARE illegal against locales containing a corps of 2+ units, right?
Yeah that is my question as well...

Quote:
Suppose the cavalry corps is the only unit that could make the attack threat, and that it would have to pass through a locale already containing friendly units and exceed the capacity of a locale in order to do it, and that if the enemy didn't retreat, then the cavalry would have to stop in that locale, exceeding the locale capacity. Now, such a move would be illegal because it would violate the locale capacity.

From there, it seems that it is illegal only when you might exceed the capacity.

 
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