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Subject: Can blips open doors in LOS of a marine? rss

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Jefferson Krogh
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Let's say a blip is next to a door. A marine is on the other side of the door, and the door is in the marine's line of sight. Can the blip open the door?
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Tom

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Yes. page 17, 2nd paragraph in the rulebook.
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The Galaxy is Just Packed!
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TKTK wrote:
Yes. page 17, 2nd paragraph in the rulebook.


And while the GS player is the one who opened the door, this counts as an "involuntary" conversion, so the Marine player places the Stealers.
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Jack
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Kobold Curry Chef wrote:
Let's say a blip is next to a door. A marine is on the other side of the door, and the door is in the marine's line of sight. Can the blip open the door?


I say no. The page 17 paragraph sited is another rule that I interpret differently than other players. As the rule says "Remember that a blip cannot move into a Space Marine's line of sight; however, the Genestealer player can move a model" (that was previously blocking LOS to the blip) "or open a door" (with a model) "that was blocking a Space Marine's line of sight, allowing the Space Marine to see a blip". That is my interpretation in bold.

Having a blip open a door in a Marines line of sight, is moving into the Marine's LOS.

At least that's how I play it.

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Patrick MARCHAL
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je sais que Haggis a posé la question à GW et que la réponse est : "oui, le joueur Genestealer peut ouvrir la porte".

Mais pour moi, je suis convaincu qu'il s'agit, en ce qui concerne ce deuxième paragraphe de la page 17, d'une écriture maladroite ou imprécise des règles, et que le texte aurait dû être le
suivant : "...cependant, le joueur Genestealer peut déplacer une figurine ou celle-ci peut ouvrir une porte qui bloquait la ligne de vue
d'un Space Marine, ce qui permet à ce dernier..."

En effet, écrit comme celà, il n'y a plus d'ambiguïté, et la règle n'est pas transgressée (un blip ne peut pas se déplacer volontairement dans la ligne de vue d'un Space Marine).

ou alors, si vraiment le blip avait le droit de se retrouver dans la ligne de vue du Marine, pourquoi le texte ne le dit pas ? il aurait suffit d'écrire : "...cependant, le joueur Genestealer peut déplacer une figurine ou un blip peut ouvrir une porte qui bloquait la ligne de vue..."

Malheureusement, j'ai l'impression que ce point de règles ne se retrouvera pas dans la FAQ officielle.




I know that Haggis has asked to GW and the answer is "yes, the player Genestealer can open the door".

But for me, I am convinced that it is, regarding the second paragraph on page 17, a writing clumsy or unclear rules, and that the text should have read: "... the Genestealer player can move a model or this one can open a door that was blocking a Space Marine line of sight, ... "

In fact, writing like this, there is no ambiguity, and the rule is not violated (a blip can't move voluntarily in line of sight for a Space Marine).

if the blip was allowed to be in the Marine line of sight, why the text don't say that? it would just write: "... the Genestealer player can move a model or a blip can open a door that was blocking a Space Marine line of sight, ... "

Unfortunately, I feel that this rule will not appear in the official FAQ.

(sorry for my poor English)

Edit : I'm not the only one to say no ; thank you Jackolantern.
 
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Tom

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I think you guys are over complicating this.

The genestealer player (who controls blips and models) can open a door or move a model to expose a blip. It doesn't say anything about only a blip or a model opening a door.

When in doubt, keep it simple.
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Jon Grey
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jackolantern wrote:
Kobold Curry Chef wrote:
Let's say a blip is next to a door. A marine is on the other side of the door, and the door is in the marine's line of sight. Can the blip open the door?


I say no. The page 17 paragraph sited is another rule that I interpret differently than other players. As the rule says "Remember that a blip cannot move into a Space Marine's line of sight; however, the Genestealer player can move a model" (that was previously blocking LOS to the blip) "or open a door" (with a model) "that was blocking a Space Marine's line of sight, allowing the Space Marine to see a blip". That is my interpretation in bold.

Having a blip open a door in a Marines line of sight, is moving into the Marine's LOS.

At least that's how I play it.



I agree with this statement.

I interpreted this as a blip cannot do anything that would put it in a Space Marine's LOS, like walking in front of a SM, or opening a door infront of a space marine. However, the player is more than welcome to voluntarily convert the blip into Genestealers, then open the door. If I recall correctly, the act of voluntary conversion must also take place before APs are spent on the activated blip. From memory..
 
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Tom

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SPARTAN VI wrote:
jackolantern wrote:
Kobold Curry Chef wrote:
Let's say a blip is next to a door. A marine is on the other side of the door, and the door is in the marine's line of sight. Can the blip open the door?


I say no. The page 17 paragraph sited is another rule that I interpret differently than other players. As the rule says "Remember that a blip cannot move into a Space Marine's line of sight; however, the Genestealer player can move a model" (that was previously blocking LOS to the blip) "or open a door" (with a model) "that was blocking a Space Marine's line of sight, allowing the Space Marine to see a blip". That is my interpretation in bold.

Having a blip open a door in a Marines line of sight, is moving into the Marine's LOS.

At least that's how I play it.



I agree with this statement.

I interpreted this as a blip cannot do anything that would put it in a Space Marine's LOS, like walking in front of a SM, or opening a door infront of a space marine. However, the player is more than welcome to voluntarily convert the blip into Genestealers, then open the door. If I recall correctly, the act of voluntary conversion must also take place before APs are spent on the activated blip. From memory..



Wow, maybe I'm confused???


Verbatim: Remember that a blip cannot move into a Space Marines line of sight; however, the Genestealer player can move a model or open a door that was blocking a Space Marine's line of sight, allowing the Space Marine to see a blip. This would be a involuntary conversion."

OK. The Genestealer player can open doors, not model, player. Blips can open doors. Opening a door is not moving.

It doesn't say the genestealer player can open a door only with a model. Since that exception is not mentioned, blips can open doors to expose blips.
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Todd Pytel
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I agree that the rules here, as in so many other places, have a lot of room for improvement.

However, is there a significant impact to how this question is answered? Is there any advantage to be gained given one interpretation that couldn't be had in some equivalent way in the other?

Off the top of my head, I don't see it.
 
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Jon Grey
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TKTK wrote:
SPARTAN VI wrote:
jackolantern wrote:
Kobold Curry Chef wrote:
Let's say a blip is next to a door. A marine is on the other side of the door, and the door is in the marine's line of sight. Can the blip open the door?


I say no. The page 17 paragraph sited is another rule that I interpret differently than other players. As the rule says "Remember that a blip cannot move into a Space Marine's line of sight; however, the Genestealer player can move a model" (that was previously blocking LOS to the blip) "or open a door" (with a model) "that was blocking a Space Marine's line of sight, allowing the Space Marine to see a blip". That is my interpretation in bold.

Having a blip open a door in a Marines line of sight, is moving into the Marine's LOS.

At least that's how I play it.



I agree with this statement.

I interpreted this as a blip cannot do anything that would put it in a Space Marine's LOS, like walking in front of a SM, or opening a door infront of a space marine. However, the player is more than welcome to voluntarily convert the blip into Genestealers, then open the door. If I recall correctly, the act of voluntary conversion must also take place before APs are spent on the activated blip. From memory..



Wow, maybe I'm confused???


Verbatim: Remember that a blip cannot move into a Space Marines line of sight; however, the Genestealer player can move a model or open a door that was blocking a Space Marine's line of sight, allowing the Space Marine to see a blip. This would be a involuntary conversion."

OK. The Genestealer player can open doors, not model, player. Blips can open doors. Opening a door is not moving.

It doesn't say the genestealer player can open a door only with a model. Since that exception is not mentioned, blips can open doors to expose blips.


I'd have to take your word for it if you're reading that from the rulebook. I haven't got it in front of me (currently at work). I'm guessing my interpretation only applies to blips that intend to turn a corner into a SM's LOS? Would a blip have to be converted into a model before APs are spent?
 
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Tom

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SPARTAN VI wrote:
TKTK wrote:
SPARTAN VI wrote:
jackolantern wrote:
Kobold Curry Chef wrote:
Let's say a blip is next to a door. A marine is on the other side of the door, and the door is in the marine's line of sight. Can the blip open the door?


I say no. The page 17 paragraph sited is another rule that I interpret differently than other players. As the rule says "Remember that a blip cannot move into a Space Marine's line of sight; however, the Genestealer player can move a model" (that was previously blocking LOS to the blip) "or open a door" (with a model) "that was blocking a Space Marine's line of sight, allowing the Space Marine to see a blip". That is my interpretation in bold.

Having a blip open a door in a Marines line of sight, is moving into the Marine's LOS.

At least that's how I play it.



I agree with this statement.

I interpreted this as a blip cannot do anything that would put it in a Space Marine's LOS, like walking in front of a SM, or opening a door infront of a space marine. However, the player is more than welcome to voluntarily convert the blip into Genestealers, then open the door. If I recall correctly, the act of voluntary conversion must also take place before APs are spent on the activated blip. From memory..



Wow, maybe I'm confused???


Verbatim: Remember that a blip cannot move into a Space Marines line of sight; however, the Genestealer player can move a model or open a door that was blocking a Space Marine's line of sight, allowing the Space Marine to see a blip. This would be a involuntary conversion."

OK. The Genestealer player can open doors, not model, player. Blips can open doors. Opening a door is not moving.

It doesn't say the genestealer player can open a door only with a model. Since that exception is not mentioned, blips can open doors to expose blips.


I'd have to take your word for it if you're reading that from the rulebook. I haven't got it in front of me (currently at work). I'm guessing my interpretation only applies to blips that intend to turn a corner into a SM's LOS? Would a blip have to be converted into a model before APs are spent?


I've been thinking about it, and I can see it both ways. It would make sense that the designers intended for blips to not reveal themselves that way. We're talking RAI here I think, not RAW.

I agree it needs clarification and I look forward to the faq.
 
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Jack
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TKTK wrote:
Wow, maybe I'm confused???


Verbatim: Remember that a blip cannot move into a Space Marines line of sight; however, the Genestealer player can move a model or open a door that was blocking a Space Marine's line of sight, allowing the Space Marine to see a blip. This would be a involuntary conversion."

OK. The Genestealer player can open doors, not model, player. Blips can open doors. Opening a door is not moving.

It doesn't say the genestealer player can open a door only with a model. Since that exception is not mentioned, blips can open doors to expose blips.


I'm just reading the rule as meaning that a blip cannot act in a way as to voluntarily place itself in a Marine's line of sight.

It strikes me as strange that GW is unable to answer these questions more quickly. They've had many people involved in the development and playtesting of the game. Shouldn't someone be able to tell us exactly what a rule means, or do they have to figure it out themselves? I would think that if I wrote something, I would be able to tell you what I meant if you didn't understand it.
 
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Rob Corn
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jackolantern wrote:
TKTK wrote:
Wow, maybe I'm confused???


Verbatim: Remember that a blip cannot move into a Space Marines line of sight; however, the Genestealer player can move a model or open a door that was blocking a Space Marine's line of sight, allowing the Space Marine to see a blip. This would be a involuntary conversion."

OK. The Genestealer player can open doors, not model, player. Blips can open doors. Opening a door is not moving.

It doesn't say the genestealer player can open a door only with a model. Since that exception is not mentioned, blips can open doors to expose blips.


I'm just reading the rule as meaning that a blip cannot act in a way as to voluntarily place itself in a Marine's line of sight.

It strikes me as strange that GW is unable to answer these questions more quickly. They've had many people involved in the development and playtesting of the game. Shouldn't someone be able to tell us exactly what a rule means, or do they have to figure it out themselves? I would think that if I wrote something, I would be able to tell you what I meant if you didn't understand it.

From what I can tell, the answers were very fast (less than a day) but the post-production steps take some time (which, as far as I know, are editing, layout, and translation, in that order). And until those steps are complete and Games Workshop has a chance to put their FAQ / Q&A on their official website, they don't want pseudo-official compilations out there.

However, the questions in the last part of this post have been given the official blessing (under "Covered by the Rules"). The question of a blip opening a door is answered there -- yes, a blip can open a door which reveals itself.
 
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A blip can open a door when there is no LOS, so why not when there is?

Those of use who have been playing Space hulk for 20 years have always opened doors with our blips.

Space Hulk is a simple game. Keep it simple.
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Jefferson Krogh
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Many thanks for all the help, guys!
 
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Pierre Philippe Goyer
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Keep it simple: every word is important...

A Blip can open a door and become in LOS of a SM. Opening a door is not moving in LOS of a SM.

The Blip that opened the door has been activated, so the revealed GS cannot act again this turn.

Other Blips now in LOS that did not act this turn are revealed and may act this turn. Such as a diagonal placed Blip that opened a door with another Blip in front of the door.

Do not forget that revealing voluntary Blips end the turn for these GS.
Whops!! After reading again the rules, this is not true: GS can be activated if their Blip was not activated prior of being voluntary revealed.

If any of these statements are false, please correct me.

Owll


Edited for the Whoops!
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Dan Poole
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Quote:
Verbatim: Remember that a blip cannot move into a Space Marines line of sight; however, the Genestealer player can move a model or open a door that was blocking a Space Marine's line of sight, allowing the Space Marine to see a blip. This would be a involuntary conversion."


I took this to mean that the blip cannot not open the door and put itself in the LOS of a SM. Rather, the GS player may use a model to open a door, which in turn may put it in LOS a blip.

I interpret the rules simply meaning blips cannot actively do something to put themselves in the LOS of a SM, which includes opening a door (even though thats technically not a "move".)
 
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Rob Corn
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You can play by any rules you want, but the official ruling is blips can open doors which reveal themselves.
 
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Dan Poole
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Where is the official ruling? I certainly don't want to play incorrectly. It just doesn't make any sense that a blip is not allowed to move into a marine LOS, yet it is allowed open a door and place itself into LOS.

If a blip can legally open a door placing itself in a SM LOS, why can't it simply turn a corner and place itself in the LOS?
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Rob Corn
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voynix wrote:
Where is the official ruling? I certainly don't want to play incorrectly. It just doesn't make any sense that a blip is not allowed to move into a marine LOS, yet it is allowed open a door and place itself into LOS.

If a blip can legally open a door placing itself in a SM LOS, why can't it simply turn a corner and place itself in the LOS?

Read this, look under "Covered by the Rules".

The rules specifically prohibit a blip entering LOS, but specifically allow opening a door. There aren't many cases where this will matter in my opinion.
 
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Dan Poole
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From the rules:
Quote:
the genestealer player may move a model or open a door that was blocking a Space Marine's line of sight, allowing the Space Marine to see a blip.


I still interptet that as the GS player is allowed to open a door (with a model) that subsequently places a blip in LOS of a SM. It does not say a blip can open a door putting itself in LOS with a SM. Does no one else agree with me, or am I being daft?

Again it seems pretty ridiculous to dissallow blips from moving into a SM LOS, yet you could allow a blip to open a door, placing it in LOS of a SM. If I am wrong, I apologise; I am not trying to be obstinate; I am simply trying to learn the game correctly. If you could show me an official GW response, I would be most thankful.
 
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Rob Corn
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voynix wrote:
From the rules:
Quote:
the genestealer player may move a model or open a door that was blocking a Space Marine's line of sight, allowing the Space Marine to see a blip.


I still interptet that as the GS player is allowed to open a door (with a model) that subsequently places a blip in LOS of a SM. It does not say a blip can open a door putting itself in LOS with a SM. Does no one else agree with me, or am I being daft?

Again it seems pretty ridiculous to dissallow blips from moving into a SM LOS, yet you could allow a blip to open a door, placing it in LOS of a SM. If I am wrong, I apologise; I am not trying to be obstinate; I am simply trying to learn the game correctly. If you could show me an official GW response, I would be most thankful.

There will be no official response for this -- it won't be in the Q&A or the clarifications document coming out next week. Here's the quote from the email from Jervis Johnson on 9/12/09:
Quote:
I agree with all of your conclusions about the ‘Covered By The Rules’ questions, so haven’t included
them below. I probably won’t include them in the FAQ either, so please feel free to post them up on
BGG and let people know that I’ve agreed with your answers.

 
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Dan Poole
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Thank you for your responses and for all the effort you put into compiling the faq. I certainly am not one to argue with the designers, though this rule still makes no sense to me.
 
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voynix wrote:
From the rules:
Quote:
the genestealer player may move a model or open a door that was blocking a Space Marine's line of sight, allowing the Space Marine to see a blip.


I still interptet that as the GS player is allowed to open a door (with a model) that subsequently places a blip in LOS of a SM. It does not say a blip can open a door putting itself in LOS with a SM. Does no one else agree with me, or am I being daft?

Again it seems pretty ridiculous to dissallow blips from moving into a SM LOS, yet you could allow a blip to open a door, placing it in LOS of a SM. If I am wrong, I apologise; I am not trying to be obstinate; I am simply trying to learn the game correctly. If you could show me an official GW response, I would be most thankful.


I agree with you voynix, but we appear to be in the minority on this interpretation. Many rules are unfortunately very ambiguously or poorly written, and assume much prior knowledge of the game, which makes it very confusing to newcomers. When the new FAQ's are released I am going to try and rewrite them in a more clear and logical manner for my friends that I am teaching.
 
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Ah, BGG. Sometimes, I love you. And sometimes, I'm amazed how a rule that is clearly spelled out in the rulebook can be so hotly debated.

The real question is why would one bother opening a door with a blip since this would lead to involuntary conversion and a blip that has already taken action that is involuntarily converted can do nothing else.

As I see it, there's no actual benefit for the Genestealer player to open a door with a blip and be converted. You might as well convert the blip beforehand and open the door. Or, if your blip only has enough actions to reach the door and open it, then the point is moot anyway.

A blip gets 6 Actions. A genestealer gets 6 Actions. So if you're really don't think a blip should be able to open a door exposing itself to Space Marine line of sight, then just always convert your blips to genestealers beforehand.

The entire question is moot because, as I see it, there's absolutely no benefit to the Genestealer player to remain in blip form if he's planning on exposing himself to Marine LOS anyway.

This is like debating if the rules of Monopoly say I can give 200 dollars back to the bank during my turn. As far as I know, there's nothing specifically saying you can't do this, but what's the benefit? Why would you bother?

Although in this case, the rules are very clear. Feel free to overcomplicate things though because that's what great about boardgames. They're completely customizable. But let's not attack Space Hulk for a crime it's not guilty of.

The fault, dear friends, lies not in our board games, but ourselves.
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