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Subject: Top 100 Analysis September 22, 2009 rss

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JonMichael Rasmus
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Preempted both last week and most likely next week.

My dear, you do not know but I know you very well:
(LW = Last week)
THE TOP 100
Prime Movers
Space Hulk (3rd Edition) +10 #8
LW: Space Hulk (3rd Edition) +73 #18

Falling Stars
NONE

Hot Lava Birth
NONE

Top Ten Trends
Space Hulk (3rd Edition) +10 #8
Tigris & Euphrates -1 #9
El Grande -1 #10
LW: Race for the Galaxy +1 #10

Top 5 Winning Movers
Age of Empires III: The Age of Discovery
Go
Blood Bowl: Living RuleBook
Dune
Lord of the Rings - The Confrontation: Deluxe Edition (Second week!)

LW:
Space Hulk (3rd Edition)
Up Front
Lord of the Rings - The Confrontation: Deluxe Edition
Automobile
Roads and Boats

New Highest Peaks
Space Hulk (3rd Edition) #8
Space Hulk #70
TZAAR #96
LW: Automobile #70

WARGAMES
Prime Movers
EastFront II +5 #14

Falling Stars
Darkest December: Battle of the Bulge 1944 -7 #23

Hot Lava Birth
Stonne Heights #13
Valor & Victory #20
LW: D-Day at Omaha Beach #2
LW: DAK #22

Top Ten Trends
RAF: The Battle of Britain 1940 +2 #1
Liberty Roads -1 #2
Case Blue +2 #3
D-Day at Omaha Beach -2 #4
Combat Commander: Pacific +4 #5
DAK2 +2 #6
Lock 'n Load: Heroes of the Blitzkrieg -3 #7
No Retreat! -1 #8
World at War: Blood and Bridges -3 #9
LW:
D-Day at Omaha Beach NEW #2
RAF: The Battle of Britain 1940 -1 #3
Lock 'n Load: Heroes of the Blitzkrieg -1 #4
Case Blue -1 #5
World at War: Blood and Bridges +2 #6
No Retreat! -2 #7
DAK2 -2 #8
Combat Commander: Pacific #9 -2
The Devil's Cauldron: The Battles for Arnhem and Nijmegen #10 -1

OTHER CHARTS
Top Ten Negotiation Games for September 22, 2009
Number in () shows rank on May 1, 2007.
1. Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition - Shattered Empire (1)
2. Battlestar Galactica (NEW)
3. Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition (2)
4. The Settlers of Catan (NEW)
5. Here I Stand (NEW)
6. Dune (NEW)
7. Catan: Cities & Knights (NEW)
8. A Game of Thrones (3)
9. Genoa (4)
10. Princes of the Renaissance (5)
OUT: Santiago, Republic of Rome, Settlers of Catan 10th Anniversary 3-D Special Edition Chest Set, Bohnanza, Civilization Western Extension Map

Small Run and New Games
1. The Burning Blue
2. Ultimate Werewolf - Ultimate Edition
3. DAK2
4. Case Blue
5. Ardennes '44
6. Mus
7. Afrika - 2nd Edition
8. Fields of Fire
9. Close Action
10. Unhappy King Charles!

For a review/explanation of the terms in this thread, check out:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Top_100_Analysis

Seriously guys, we need to figure why there are two games withe same name and the same mechanics in the top 100 and yet a new playable version of Dominion is considered an "expansion". I mean, come on. Pick one way and stick with it. 1861 and Lots More leave the SRaNG chart.

Have a good week.
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Jonathan Morton
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Quote:
Seriously guys, we need to figure why there are two games withe same name and the same mechanics in the top 100 and yet a new playable version of Dominion is considered an "expansion". I mean, come on. Pick one way and stick with it.


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Aaron Tubb
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Quote:
Seriously guys, we need to figure why there are two games withe same name and the same mechanics in the top 100 and yet a new playable version of Dominion is considered an "expansion". I mean, come on. Pick one way and stick with it.


I'm guessing it's because Intrigue was specifically made as, and released as, an expansion (that has enough cards to also be played stand alone). Space Hulk, on the other hand, is not an expansion.

It is common practice on BGG to give new editions of older games their own entry if the rules or gameplay are different enough. See also Arkham Horror, Axis and Allies, Twilight Imperium, Warhammer 40k, Drakon, Talisman, Runebound, Blood Bowl, etc.
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Jonathan Morton
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Aarontu wrote:
I'm guessing it's because Intrigue was specifically made as, and released as, an expansion (that has enough cards to also be played stand alone).


Or you could say: Intrigue was specifically made as, and released as, a different iteration of the Dominion system (that happens to be playable as an expansion of the other base game).

See also:
Heroscape Master Set: Rise of the Valkyrie
Heroscape Master Set: Swarm of the Marro
Heroscape Marvel: The Conflict Begins
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Jorge Arroyo
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Quote:
Seriously guys, we need to figure why there are two games withe same name and the same mechanics in the top 100 and yet a new playable version of Dominion is considered an "expansion". I mean, come on. Pick one way and stick with it.


Easy: Two editions of a game which have different rule sets and components and which both are liked enough to reach the Top 10. What's wrong with that? Or is it ok to have different entries only when they are obscure and not threatening the status quo?

The question is not should SH have its own entry (that's a clear YES! as the game is different enough from the older editions, especially 2nd), but: Was turning Dominion Intrigue into an unranked expansion a good idea? And the answer is no, as even though it can be used as an expansion, it is a stand alone game. Many such examples exist in the database such as Under the Shadow of the Dragon and Helden in der Unterwelt both which can be played stand alone or expanding Return of the Heroes and both are ranked on BGG as regular games. I'm sure there are many more example, but of course, they didn't threaten the top 10 as Intrigue did and Space Hulk is doing now...

It's pretty clear, some people will look for any excuse to get rid of the games that threaten to overtake their favorite games in the ranks... sad...shake


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JonMichael Rasmus
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The critical idea here is that database administrators should not have to divine the intentions of the people who design, publish and market games. Pick a consistent non-voting type metric and apply it equally.

I would say that "when you buy it, you can open the box and play it = not an expansion", made a lot of sense. But removing Dominion because it "seems like" an expansion yet adding in multiple different editions of games with almost the same rules (four Cosmic Enounters, Diamant vs. Incan etc., etc.) seems misguided. I'm happy to hear it if someone can split the difference between D:I and the Hulks, HeroScapes, and Cosmics that litter the list. I just don't think it will work.
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Jorge Arroyo
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Looking at it from the perspective of a casual gamer coming to the site for the first time helps a lot.

When this guy finds Dominion Intrigue he'll probably assume that as it is listed as an expansion, he won't be able to play it without the original game. He may decide to buy both and then get pissed off because he could have just bought the second game to try out the series...

When this guy tries to get some rules information about his brand new Space Hulk copy, he'll get to the meaningful answers right away, without having to ask himself each time he opens a thread: Is this for the 1st ed, the 2nd, or the 3rd?

So, I'm fine with games having different entries if they're different enough and not fine with having stand alone games listed as expansions...

Now, if all we care about is the ratings, then it may be possible to include all variants of each game (different editions, rethemings, etc...) into families and rank those game families instead of each edition individually. Or have two separate rankings one for each.

I too would like to see some consistency, and what happened with Dominion Intrigue (even though I care little about Dominion in general) has lowered my trust for this site a bit...
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1603-1714
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jmsr525 wrote:
The critical idea here is that database administrators should not have to divine the intentions of the people who design, publish and market games. Pick a consistent non-voting type metric and apply it equally.

Yes, this is the main problem - a general lack of consistency. The overall silence from the administrators in this issue has been a bit frustrating.
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Gary Heidenreich
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The only reason Dominion: Intrigue is considered an expansion is the tantrum that people threw because both were in the top 10. It is unfortunate that they switched it. As noted above, my feeling is if you can play it out of the box it's not an expansion.



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Matt
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Endeavor is making a rapid climb up the ladder. I wonder how long until it breaks into the top 100.
 
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Damon Herren
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bop517 wrote:
The only reason Dominion: Intrigue is considered an expansion is the tantrum that people threw because both were in the top 10. It is unfortunate that they switched it. As noted above, my feeling is if you can play it out of the box it's not an expansion.


Dominion Intrigue is a stand alone game, but most people play (and rate) it as an expansion. I actually don't know anyone that truly plays it as a stand alone game.
 
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Steve Russell
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DamonH wrote:
bop517 wrote:
The only reason Dominion: Intrigue is considered an expansion is the tantrum that people threw because both were in the top 10. It is unfortunate that they switched it. As noted above, my feeling is if you can play it out of the box it's not an expansion.


Dominion Intrigue is a stand alone game, but most people play (and rate) it as an expansion. I actually don't know anyone that truly plays it as a stand alone game.


If I had MY choice of which one to buy if I could only buy one it would be INTRIGUE. It's the better of the two. If I were asked for advice on which to buy, it would be Intrigue. I don't think I'm alone, therefore, we do a disservice to anyone coming on here to infer that Intrigue is an expansion, not a stand alone.

And yes, I have both.

Also, we will play Intrigue stand alone, but won't play the Original without putting in some Intrigue cards (unless we're teaching a newb).

This whole thing is BS and is caused by some whiners.
 
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Bill Heaton
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I'll be surprised if it does. I found it very megh...Goa vs. P.Rico, and I'd rather just play those two, mind you going on the prevelant tastes of this site, your probably right, it'll get there, but I doubt it'll stay.

edit: oops, forgot to press quote, I'm talking about Endeavor.
 
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