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Where There Is Discord: War in the South Atlantic» Forums » Rules

Subject: Question on Argentinian Navy rss

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Juan Valle
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Hi Folks!!!

After 3 sessions of play, there is a doubt I have regarding the Argentinian Navy:

1-If an Argie submarine(either San Luis or Santa Fe) goes into any patrol box(COASTAL, SEARCH OR EXCLUSION) and it is not detected by the British, and the submarine itself does not detect neither a British sub in the same box or the task force, it should get back to the Ready For War Box? I have played that way, but on a point the rules mentioned about Argentinian Navy units starting the turn in a patrol box.

2-Same question for the task groups 79.4, 79.3 and 79.1: once they avoided detection by British subs and they failed to detect anything, are they supposed to go off-board?

Not a hurry, but if any one of you fellows can give me a light on this, I'll really appreciate it. Just to be sure I have being playing it right.

Thanks,

Jumval
 
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Russell Collingham
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Don't they then move to take on the task force? British ships / Harriers in zone 10 get a chance to detect, and failing that the Arg ships/subs head for a task force zone.

See section 13.8

Quote:
13.8 Argentine vs. British Fleet Detection
After defending themselves from patrolling British Submarines, the Argentine Navy prepares to go
on the offensive and attempt to attack the bulk of the British fleet.
 
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Martin Wright
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Thats not how I play.

If the British sub fails to detect the Argie sub and vice versa then the Argie sub will have a chance to detect the task force.

If this also fails the task force defence zone ships have a chance to detect the Argie sub. Any detection by anyone will result in combat (ROE permitting).

If no detection takes place by anyone then the Argie sub will remain in the patrol box for that turn. However on the next turn you will roll 3d4 to ascertain the new position of the Argie sub.

Any combat the Argie sub survives will cause it to go back to the Ready for War box.

Thats how I play it.
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Dan Hodges
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Martin's right.

If there is no detection by either side then the sub or Task Groups stay in the Naval Patrol Box until the next turn.

 
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Micha Snijder
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shiner22 wrote:
If the British sub fails to detect the Argie sub and vice versa then the Argie sub will have a chance to detect the task force.

If this also fails the task force defence zone ships have a chance to detect the Argie sub.


I wanted to post that I disagreed with this, but reading the rules I'm now not so sure. 13.8.3 reads as if it only follows if the Argentine Navy detects the Taskforce in 13.8.2. But nowhere does it state that specifically, and reading the Sequence of Play it would seem that you do 13.8.3 whatever happens in 13.8.2.

Thematically this seems wrong. The placement of the Argentine Surface Groups in any Patrol Box doesn't mean the group is actually there (or so the manual tells me), yet I understand that the Task Force Defence Zone is near to the Task Force compared to the Argentine mainland. It doesn't make sense that a Surface Group not attacking the Task Force this turn could be detected independent of which patrol box they are in, and independent of whether they attacked or not. They could after all be anywhere; including the coast.

It would also make the Argie Surface Group pretty tame, since placing two or three ships in the Defence Zone would in practice neutralise the Argentine naval threat.

Ah wait, if I apply the same logic as I did above, i.e. 13.8.3 follows whatever happened in 13.8.2 because it says so in the Sequence of Play, then I need to do 13.8.4 as well. That means that after I make the rolls in 13.8.3, for each of the Argentine units that did not get detected I then roll a Engagement Roll (1d12) and then conduct combat by the rules in 13.9. This would be weird since what would then be the point of detection rolls in 13.8.2 if the Argentine units will conduct combat anyway if they are not detected in 13.8.3

That at least convinces me, but could you give a ruling Dan? Excellent game by the way.
 
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Martin Wright
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This is how I see it...

The Argentine Task Group (ATG) cannot attempt to detect the British Surface Fleet until after it has evaded/survived the British submarines.

If the ATF is hit it is removed from the game, however certain failed attacks will result in the ATF returning to its patrol box. This implies to me that the ATF was not aware of the British sub stalking it.

If the ATF then fails to detect the British sub(s) it will not enter combat and so will be free to carry out 13.8 (searching for the British Task Force)

13.8.1 states "this detection is abstracted, and effectively involves the Units transiting from their current location undetected to engage the Task Force close to the Islands"

So now we have an ATG closing towards the Islands, but still in a vast area of sea, and rolling to search for sign of the BTF (be it sonar,radar ESM etc). If the ATG fails to detect the BTF at this stage there will be no attack from the ATG this turn. If the ATG does detect the BTF it must first evade the ships in the Defence Zone before it can launch an attack. Thematically I feel this shows a reluctance on the part of the Argentine Navy to attempt to fight its way through the Defence Zone.

At the same time we have British ships in the Defence Zone constantly searching for signs of approaching threats. If they detect the ATG then the ATG immediately leaves.

However, occasionally, the ATG will detect the BTF and either the Defence Zone will be empty (not such a good tactic!) or the ATG will not be detected regardless of the amount of British ships in the Defence Zone. When this happens the ATG has made it through to the Task Force and is ready to cause some trouble for the British.

So in other words:

Has ATG detected the BTF? If YES roll to see if Defence Zone (DZ) ships detect ATG. If this is a YES withdraw ATG off board. If this is a NO then ATG is free to roll 1d12 to engage a section of the BTF.

Has ATG detected the BTF? If NO then roll to see if DZ ships detect ATG. If this is a YES withdraw ATG off board. If this is a NO the the failure of the ATG to detect the BTF means that the ATG counter remains at sea in the Coastal/Search/Exclusion Box for the remainder of the turn.
 
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Micha Snijder
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I see, but the consequence of playing like this is that any time an ATG sets out to sea it won't be there very long. Either it detects the BTF and attempts an attack and is likely put off-board after or even before the attack, or it does not detect the BTF (very likely) and will most likely be put off-board because of a very likely Defence Zone detection roll. It's already pretty hard to get any Argentine Naval Forces on the board. Playing like this would neuter them since they'd probably only last one turn on the board and then have to go back with trying to get on the board.

To back up my point:

Two ships in the Defence Zone: 55.56% chance that the ATG is put off-board
Three ships: 70.37%

I think that's OK if the ATG actually attacks the BTF, but those odds are way too harsh if they are applied every time an ATG is in a Patrol Box.

But let's see what Dan says.:)
 
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Juan Valle
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Hi Folks!!!

Thanks for your answers.

I agree 100% what Martin says, and was part of my doubt about the Argentinian Navy: in the way I used to employ it(which was wrong), it made no sense to put an Argie sub or an ATG to the sea and then withdraw at the end of the same turn if nothing was detected.

By the same token, it would make no sense for the BTF to keep vessels and Harriers at the Defense Zone(Zone 10), when the chances for an Argie sub or ATG to detect the BTF were so minimal.

It is more logic to keep the Argie sub(s) and/or ATG in the respective patrol box if they failed to detect anything, so it really projects the 'threat' feeling against the BTF. Also, it forces the player to deploy at least 1 vessel and 1 Harrier into the Defense Zone.

Let's wait for Dan opinion.

Regards,

Jumval
 
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Dan Hodges
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Hi Guys,


Apologies, I might have added to the confusion by not fully reading all of Martin's initial response.

Right, the process is:


a) We assume the Argentine Sub or Task Group has evaded the patrolling SSNs one way or another.

b) The Argentine Sub or Task Group rolls to see if they can detect the British Task Force. This roll occurs regardless of the Naval Patrol Box the unit is in, but the chances of detection are obviously greater the 'closer' the vessel is to the Task Force, (Coastal Zone furthest away, Search Zone nearer, Exclusion Zone, nearer still).

c) If there is NO detection, the Argentine unit STAYS WHERE IT IS. It has not got close enough to the Task Force to detect it. Similarly, there is NO detection roll by any British units in the Defence Zone, or by any other Task Force units. (The Argentines just haven't got close enough to be detected).

d) If there IS detection, THEN any British units in the Defence Zone may attempt to detect the Argentines, and effectively 'screen' the rest of the Task Force.

e) If the BRITISH detection IS succesful, the Argentines make a run for it, and live to fight another day.

f) If the BRITISH detection ISN'T succesful, the Argentines then get the chance to launch an attack on the Task Force proper.

That's it.

Hope it's all a bit clearer.


Dan
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Juan Valle
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Hi Dan,

Just to thank you for your clarifying not on the Argentinian Navy.

Everything(at least for me), crystal clear right now.

Thanks,

Jumval
 
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Juan Valle
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Sorry for the typo, I meant 'thank you for your clarifying note on the Argentinian Navy'.

Jumval
 
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bertrand d
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Just a quick question about the historical situation at game's beginning:

As the major threat from the Argentinian Navy happened on May 1st: the 25 de Mayo was ready to launch its aircraft at the British taskforce. The 2 other Naval groups were also at sea near the exclusion zone.
http://www.raf.mod.uk/falklands/an.html

Wouldn't it be logic to have all of the Argentinian Navy at Sea at beginning of game ?
 
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