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Warhammer: Invasion» Forums » General

Subject: How fun is this if you take out deckbuilding completely? rss

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Daric Morris
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I'm wondering how fun this game will be if you just take everything in the base box, divide it into two decks and play?

I'm having to create gamers if I want to actually play with anyone and deckbuilding is a hard concept for noobs to grasp. Impossible until you understand the game and even then might still seem like 'work' to a non-gamer.

Thoughts?
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Michael Jordal
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I have four decks from the base game that I have been playing with and having fun. I just through the neutral cards into the 4 starters and I think they play fine like that.
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Kevin Seachrist
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With that many cards, I'd be concerned that loyalty symbols will really slam you early on for costs. Perhaps a good way to offset this (since you're each playing with three races) is count your Capital as one of each race's symbol. That still requires paying extra costs quite often (many cards have 2 or more symbols), but it won't completely cripple you with getting those first cards into play.

The worst part of a deck that isn't tuned properly isn't its unpredictability, it's those terrible slow starts when your resources are all keyed differently than the cards you need them to pay for. If you can offset that a bit, then highly random games can be a hoot since you'll think "I wonder what I'll draw next..." instead of "I hope I can draw something I can actually pay for".

When both people can do stuff, then it feels like a good fight. When one is resource-hosed, it's only fun for the other player (and hopefully not fun for them either unless they're a sadistic asshat).
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Gabe Covert
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Yeah, this is definitely playable out of the box. I've played 2 games with my friend who has the starter so far, and they were both fun and fairly even, though Dwarf/Orc was a lot closer than Human/Chaos.

ninja
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Well according to the rules you're not supposed to mix Destruction (Chaos & Orcs) with Order (Empire & Dwarves). So if you do that, well I imagine you're just asking for weird/uneven or even broken results.

If you just stick to the four core decks, you're totally fine - they play very well against each other (see my review here at BGG for a review and a discussion of the races and cards.
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Marc-Andre Blanchet
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wytefang wrote:
Well according to the rules you're not supposed to mix Destruction (Chaos & Orcs) with Order (Empire & Dwarves). So if you do that, well I imagine you're just asking for weird/uneven or even broken results.

If you just stick to the four core decks, you're totally fine - they play very well against each other (see my review here at BGG for a review and a discussion of the races and cards.


This brings the question: Why, besides theme, is it a bad idea to mix Order and Chaos?
 
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Michael Jordal
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Mabool wrote:
wytefang wrote:
Well according to the rules you're not supposed to mix Destruction (Chaos & Orcs) with Order (Empire & Dwarves). So if you do that, well I imagine you're just asking for weird/uneven or even broken results.

If you just stick to the four core decks, you're totally fine - they play very well against each other (see my review here at BGG for a review and a discussion of the races and cards.


This brings the question: Why, besides theme, is it a bad idea to mix Order and Chaos?


I am guessing for the fluff and also to make play testing and generating new cards you only have to test against half the cards in the game instead of the whole game.
 
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Gabe Covert
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Mabool wrote:
wytefang wrote:
Well according to the rules you're not supposed to mix Destruction (Chaos & Orcs) with Order (Empire & Dwarves). So if you do that, well I imagine you're just asking for weird/uneven or even broken results.

If you just stick to the four core decks, you're totally fine - they play very well against each other (see my review here at BGG for a review and a discussion of the races and cards.


This brings the question: Why, besides theme, is it a bad idea to mix Order and Chaos?


Ummm... 'cause that's the rules?

ninja
 
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Marc-Andre Blanchet
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CovertDad wrote:
Mabool wrote:
wytefang wrote:
Well according to the rules you're not supposed to mix Destruction (Chaos & Orcs) with Order (Empire & Dwarves). So if you do that, well I imagine you're just asking for weird/uneven or even broken results.

If you just stick to the four core decks, you're totally fine - they play very well against each other (see my review here at BGG for a review and a discussion of the races and cards.


This brings the question: Why, besides theme, is it a bad idea to mix Order and Chaos?


Ummm... 'cause that's the rules?


Very observant. Yet every rule has a reason.

For the record, "Because of the theme" is a good reason. I was just wondering if there was something else to it.
 
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Kevin Seachrist
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Based on what I remember of the cards, there's no reason I can think of why you couldn't mix any two (or more) races. The issue (as I mentioned previously) is loyalty costs on the cards and getting the right symbols into play. Mixing factions means there's no banner cards to grant the combination of symbols, so you'd be at a disadvantage.

There isn't a huge amount of synergy inherent to the card descriptions. For example, I don't think any of the other races beside Chaos capitalize on corrupted cards (high elves heal corruption with one card). The synergy comes in just making the cards work well together based on how you play them.

Game of Thrones: you can have a Lannister/Stark alliance. It's icky, but it's possible.

Call of Cthulhu: you can have a Miskatonic University/Cthulhu alliance.

Magic: Black/White anyone? There's actually cards to support opposing colors.

There's not going to be a grade after your game for how well you adhere to either rules or conventions. House rule the hell out of stuff! It's your game! Just be attentive to balance issues, but that comes from experience with the rules and with the cards so you know what you can adjust that won't break the game. I don't think "opposing alliances" will currently break anything, but it might put some noses out of joint among rules sticklers.
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Larry Neal
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Rykaar wrote:
Based on what I remember of the cards, there's no reason I can think of why you couldn't mix any two (or more) races. The issue (as I mentioned previously) is loyalty costs on the cards and getting the right symbols into play. Mixing factions means there's no banner cards to grant the combination of symbols, so you'd be at a disadvantage.

There isn't a huge amount of synergy inherent to the card descriptions. For example, I don't think any of the other races beside Chaos capitalize on corrupted cards (high elves heal corruption with one card). The synergy comes in just making the cards work well together based on how you play them.


Good answer, while I have yet to play this game I plan on owning a copy soon and have read all that is currently available as far as rules. You pretty much hit the nail on the head from what I have seen, the Synergy between the opposing forces just isn't there as of yet, and there will be horrible balance issues, either for you or your opponent. House rules, at this point, would of course fix that, but since this is so new, and sounds so good, I would suggest an even play through to see if it needs such spicing added to it. The already announced "chapters" notwithstanding, my limited TCG/CCG/LCG experience (3 systems over the past 6 years or so) points to good times ahead for this system, it seems exciting!
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Kevin Seachrist
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Bigtop305 wrote:
Good answer, while I have yet to play this game I plan on owning a copy soon and have read all that is currently available as far as rules. You pretty much hit the nail on the head from what I have seen, the Synergy between the opposing forces just isn't there as of yet, and there will be horrible balance issues, either for you or your opponent. House rules, at this point, would of course fix that, but since this is so new, and sounds so good, I would suggest an even play through to see if it needs such spicing added to it. The already announced "chapters" notwithstanding, my limited TCG/CCG/LCG experience (3 systems over the past 6 years or so) points to good times ahead for this system, it seems exciting!


Oh, don't get me wrong--aside from the loyalty penalty, there may be good reasons to mix the factions purely from a "gaming the game" perspective. The empire and dwarves don't hit as hard as the destruction factions do, particularly the orcs. I imagine there's some gain to be had by spicing a defensive deck with some dirty tricks from an opposing faction--again, if you can afford to play them. The "horrible balance issues" now really only slams the person trying to mix factions (which the rules technically prohibit anyway)--I suspect at the moment a single faction deck will stomp a mixed one, but that may not always be true as the game expands.

Keep an eye on cards that only have one loyalty symbol. That's where the intersection between races will live.

I am very excited about the game. I've played it about a half a dozen times now, at least once with each race. My only complaint is number and variety of cards (and abilities) is still pretty limited, but that's inevitable with only a core set. The fact that they seem to completely recognize this issue is evident by the aggressive expansion set rollout (assuming they really do come right on the heels of the core). As long as each new expansion truly brings something new to the table (a new mechanic, a radically new ability, etc.) then the game won't get stale and the number of alternative strategies will proliferate.

What I don't want to see is new monsters that are the same as old ones with a stat pushed around here or there. The biggest issue with that isn't that the variety of monsters is limited, it's that the variety of deck styles would be limited. If you feel like you're always playing against the same decks, and your own deck plays the same way regardless of the cards you choose, you eventually get bored. From what I've seen so far, that's not going to be the case.
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Kevin has superbly stated what I imagine any potential (and current) Warhammer: Invasion fan would, could, and should be thinking. I tend to agree that single Race decks are, at present, fairly tough. He suspects the Orcs of being the toughest deck but I think it's fairly close between all of them - based on my games played (about 18 games so far and 2 decks built). I won't deny that the Orcs are pretty darn tough, though, they're scary. But I really enjoy the tactical choices required by running an Empire "marching" deck (as I call it) - see Rykaar, I've coined a unique phrase for the game!

(Sorry, that last part was an in-joke between Kevin and I from a different thread!)
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Kevin Seachrist
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wytefang wrote:
Kevin has superbly stated what I imagine any potential (and current) Warhammer: Invasion fan would, could, and should be thinking. I tend to agree that single Race decks are, at present, fairly tough. He suspects the Orcs of being the toughest deck but I think it's fairly close between all of them - based on my games played (about 18 games so far and 2 decks built). I won't deny that the Orcs are pretty darn tough, though, they're scary. But I really enjoy the tactical choices required by running an Empire "marching" deck (as I call it) - see Rykaar, I've coined a unique phrase for the game!

(Sorry, that last part was an in-joke between Kevin and I from a different thread!)


LOL! OK, but I still have dibs on "siege". Anyway, yeah, I discovered how fun the Empire's "marching" strategy can be when my Empire opponent marched my Chaos Knights (3 power) into my quest zone and a geyser of cards started flying off my deck (with what I voluntarily put there, I was drawing 6 per turn against a 50 card deck with about 5 resources to spend--and that's not a good thing). Good thing I still managed to burn down their capital before they burned down my draw pile. devil
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Sweet. Good job man!
 
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