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Subject: Food can always be replaced 1:1 with Francs and Entry Fees rss

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Justin Fitzgerald
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Page 5 of the rulebook reads:

Le Havre wrote:
Note: In this game, Food can always be replaced 1:1 with Francs.
Francs can, however, never be replaced with food.


The wording is awful. It implies that at any point in the game food can be replaced 1:1 with Francs, meaning food is a money-equivalent. After researching here on BGG, I have found that this rule is meant to apply only in the context of paying an entry fee to a building. A better wording might be:

Suggested interpretation wrote:
Note: In order to pay the costs to enter a building, a player can choose to pay all or part of a Food cost in Francs.
Food cannot, however, be used to pay a franc cost.


I also found it very confusing that, at least as best as I can read it, there is never a single-source explanation of the different ways goods could be used. An experienced player will understand how they work, but I'd really rather it be spelled out, more like Race for the Galaxy or San Juan might:

Suggested addition wrote:
Goods represent opportunities to the player. Many are resources which can be used to build buildings using a construction firm. Some goods have a food value. These can be used to meet food costs at the end of the round or to pay food to enter a building. Goods also have potential value as Francs if sold through a Shipping Lane or other special building.


I think part of what caused us confusion was the fact that the ship food markers were included. We were confused because they serve no actual game purpose. They're nothing more than a player aid, but the fact they're printed with a food marker makes it seem like maybe you might hand a player one of them rather than handing him Bread. Bread is food, but bread is also a good that could be sold in the shipping lane for Francs.

I'd really have liked to see something like this in the rulebook:

My wish addition wrote:
When paying an entry fee using food, you're actually handing over a good with food value. Example: Bob wants to enter the shipping lane, which is owned by player Ann. The shipping lane has an entry fee of 2 food. This cost could be met using either food or francs (as francs can freely purchase food). Bob unfortunately only has Meat, a 3 food value good, and no Francs. To enter the Shipping Lane, Bob hands Ann the Meat. Although Bob overpaid, change is not made for either player involved in the transaction.


I understand that all of these rules can be figured out but I feel the organization of the rules keeps the simplicity of the game from really being apparent.
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Nick Fisk
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KakarisMaelstrom wrote:
The wording is awful. It implies that at any point in the game food can be replaced 1:1 with Francs


This is correct. Whenever you need food, you can use francs instead, at a rate of 1:1.



Quote:
After researching here on BGG, I have found that this rule is meant to apply only in the context of paying an entry fee to a building.


Not true. You can also use francs to feed your workers at the end of a round.



The simple explanation is:

Food can be replaced with Francs.

Francs cannot be replaced with food.




N.
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Justin Fitzgerald
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Moviebuffs wrote:

Quote:
After researching here on BGG, I have found that this rule is meant to apply only in the context of paying an entry fee to a building.


Not true. You can also use francs to feed your workers at the end of a round.


Right, sorry I wrote that badly. I meant to say that when they put that text block there, they expected you to realize that meant it was in the context of paying an entry fee to a building.

A interpretation of "In this game, Food can always be replaced 1:1 with Francs." might be that food is money. Rather it is money can be used to pay food costs.
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Chris Ferejohn
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Huh. I don't find this confusing at all when I think about it thematically. If I owe someone food, I can always buy the food if I have money. If I owe someone money, I can't give them a cheeseburger.
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Justin Fitzgerald
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Agreed. It was just the wording of that rule that completely threw me off.
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Gordon Adams
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It threw us ! We made the rule that turns out to be the correct one. It just did not make sense otherwise.

It really makes my blood boil when rules are not checked and re-checked. Proof-readers, designers.....ask for English-speaking proof-readers after play testing the game with the wrong rules !!!!! angry
 
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Bruce Murphy
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elfrododumbo wrote:

It threw us ! We made the rule that turns out to be the correct one. It just did not make sense otherwise.

It really makes my blood boil when rules are not checked and re-checked. Proof-readers, designers.....ask for English-speaking proof-readers after play testing the game with the wrong rules !!!!! angry


*summons a Melissa*

B>
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Mark Bigney
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This has been mentioned before; to be frank, I have no idea why some people find it so confusing.
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Bruce Murphy
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Gyges wrote:
This has been mentioned before; to be frank, I have no idea why some people find it so confusing.


Probably because it wasn't worded as "A food payment or end-of-round feeding requirement can be met wholly or partially with francs at a 1:1 exchange rate"

The suggestion that there's an ability to turn money into hypothetical magic food (something that can't be represented in the game) is confusing. Food is a property of certain goods in Le Havre, not a token-represented thing as it is in Agricola.

Granted, the confusion is quickly cleared up, and the only sane interpretation is the right one, but the confusion remains.

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Gordon Adams
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thepackrat wrote:
elfrododumbo wrote:

It threw us ! We made the rule that turns out to be the correct one. It just did not make sense otherwise.

It really makes my blood boil when rules are not checked and re-checked. Proof-readers, designers.....ask for English-speaking proof-readers after play testing the game with the wrong rules !!!!! angry


*summons a Melissa*

B>



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Matthew M
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Gyges wrote:
This has been mentioned before; to be frank...


Please tell me that was intended!
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