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Subject: Space Hulk, Hype, and "Over"-Rating rss

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Louis Sylvester
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I was reading a couple comments in the Space Hulk (third edition) rating section. I enjoy hearing WHY a person has rated a game high or low.

Now, I'm a huge fan of Space Hulk since 1st ed, and I understand the hype. I'm excited too. But I've also known many people, both friends and family, who were entirely underwhelmed by Space Hulk in the past. I love the game, but I understand that many people don't.

That said, I was reading the few available comments from the people that rated Space Hulk (third edition) a 1.

Most of the raters declined to comment. Fine.

But the few who did all stated something along the lines of: "This rating is artificially low. Space Hulk is not a 10 and doesn't deserve to be ranked in the top ten games. I'm trying to counter-act the hype so that Space Hulk doesn't get over-ranked."

So, my question is why does anyone care? So what if Space Hulk is over-ranked for a week or a month? How does that hurt anybody (including people who don't like Space Hulk?) And what if it Space Hulk isn't over-ranked? What if it actually is a top ten game?

Personally, I dislike Tigris & Euphrates. I've tried to like it and just can't seem to have fun. Yet it remains in the top ten games of all time. Should I rank it a 1 until the "obvious hype" calms down? Or should I just give it the score that I think it actually deserves?

If a game is artificially over-ranked because of "hype" then time will fix it. It seems absurd to rank a game lower because you think others are ranking it too high for your taste. That defeats the whole purpose of a ranking system.

Am I naive about this? Is there actually a valid reason for giving a false rating for a game? (And, for the record, if you think Space Hulk deserves a 1, then more power to you. It's not a game for everyone.)
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Josh P.
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You'll find the same thing on every game, and usually to a much bigger extent.

Look at some of the comments for the 60 people who rated Agricola a 1:

Quote:
I dedicate this rating to everyone who hasn't yet played this game and gave it a 10 based on hype.


Quote:
DON'T DRINK THE COOL AID


Quote:
This isn't a game. I've never seen it, nor do I believe it exists. It's actually a huge prank, who's sole purpose is to expose just how pathetic some of the people on this site are.
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Randy Schaub
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The number of '1' ratings has more than doubled in the past few days. There are no corresponding comments to accompany these ratings--they're just bits of numbers sabotage. It really is pathetic that some people regard this as some sort of holy mission. The crap really hit the fan when someone crosslisted SH as a 'wargame'. Then the anti-hypers really attacked in force (by which I mean, like, eight guys).

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J
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the super-secret shill-busting algorithm probably neuters a lot of that as far as the ranking goes i would imagine. but perhaps it is cathartic for the shillers and provides them an outlet.
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Dan
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Yeah... I see what you did there.
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Joe S
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Randy13 wrote:
The crap really hit the fan when someone crosslisted SH as a 'wargame'. Then the anti-hypers really attacked in force (by which I mean, like, eight guys).



That's awesome.

/hasn't rated Space Hulk
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J B
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Really the members posting 1's on Space Hulks ratings just for the sake of artifically dragging down it's score do themselves a disservice and is totally disrespectful to what BGG stands for. I cannot believe individuals are so pathetic they would play rating games like this. There is already talk of going and posting 1's on other games in retaliation. Where does all this end. It's this sort of idiotic behaviour that has the capacity to spoil a really good thing. Personally I hope some mod goes and wipes all the 1's off that seem fake or they contact that member to challenge. The bulk of the posters coming from China also seems suspect. Maybe there is a way the grown ups can check an IP address to see it's originating country. Ultimately SH's rating will settle and it will be what it will be. If that happens to be higher than others would like then it's unfortunate. Lets hope the children can understand this.
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Mendon Dornbrook
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There are significant consequences to the rankings. There are two issues that I see. One is that the higher rated a game is, especially if it's in the top 100, means that it is likely to be bought on the strength of its ratings alone. A high rating for Space Hulk means that not just the hype crowd will buy it. I can see someone motivated to reduce a game's ranking for economic reasons.

However, and I think this second argument is more valid, I can also understand people who don't want to see a game bloat their gaming group's tables. When a new game comes out that is very popular, it dominates the table while people play it to figure out if it's going to be a staple.

There's also the even more realistic prospect that there are a lot of people on the internet who are douchebags that think their opinion is more important than anyone else's. This seems like the most likely culprit. I've seen people rate a game a 1 because the designer rated their own game a 10 and even , "This game is spam."
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Magnus Esko
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I remember people rating Puerto Rico 1 just because they wanted Agricola to take its place.

Personally I wish BGG had a rating based weight system where if a lot of people rate a game high then low ratings had less weight. If you look at the descriptions of the ratings a 1 means a broken game, how many broken games get hundreds of high votes?
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Ettore Gislon
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I think that the hyper-rating problem shouldn't exist, since rating a game on BGG isn't definitive, you can change your mind whenever you want (thing which I personally did).
People are supposed to give random 10s and THEN, after many plays, see if that game really deserved that score.
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Brian M
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Space Hulk demonstrates a lot about the flaws in BGG ratings.

Its a highly expensive, incredibly limited edition game that people have had 20 years to form opinions of, and that is written as a two player game so people won't generally be playing it in "open gaming" formats.

In short, no one who dislikes this game should wind up playing it. So it should only get high ratings.

Being the only game that doesn't follow a bell curve is an indication of something very wrong.
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Seriously, turn off Facebook. You'll be happier.
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StormKnight wrote:
incredibly limited edition


    Rumor has it Space Hulk was incredibly limited to tens of thousands of copies, vastly more than any print run of any game in the top fifty.

    At the price the game is self-selective, but so is just about any other game when it first comes out. Generally I look at the top games as more like the pop charts than a hall of fame. BattleLore was up there, Dominion is now.

    Space Hulk has a solid shot to stay somewhere near the top. The game is tight, short, intense, and just plain gorgeous. It's an excellent blend of play and eye-candy.

             Sag.


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Neil
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ErisQuilty wrote:
Personally, I dislike Tigris & Euphrates. I've tried to like it and just can't seem to have fun.


What a preposterous thing to say! You are full of nung, and you're talking through your petloodle. People like you should be banagrated and shlaverated. You're absolutely disflung...AND TIGRIS & EUPHRATES IS ONE OF THE BEST BOADGAMES OF ALL TIME!
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James Cheevers
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Chimaera wrote:
I cannot believe individuals are so pathetic they would play rating games like this.


Hi!! You must be new to the internet...
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Jorge Arroyo
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joshp wrote:
You'll find the same thing on every game, and usually to a much bigger extent.

Look at some of the comments for the 60 people who rated Agricola a 1:

Quote:
I dedicate this rating to everyone who hasn't yet played this game and gave it a 10 based on hype.


Quote:
DON'T DRINK THE COOL AID


Quote:
This isn't a game. I've never seen it, nor do I believe it exists. It's actually a huge prank, who's sole purpose is to expose just how pathetic some of the people on this site are.


Don't forget that by looking at the proportion of 1s to total number of ratings, the percentage is much higher in SH, so whatever damage it did to Agricola is much smaller than what this is doing to SH.

Don't care much about the ratings overall (practically none of my favorite games are even in the top 100) but these people should be ashamed of themselves. It's a behavior I'd expect from kids, but then again, maybe they're kids after all... there's no way to know the real ages of people on the 'net...

StormKnight wrote:
Space Hulk demonstrates a lot about the flaws in BGG ratings.

Its a highly expensive, incredibly limited edition game that people have had 20 years to form opinions of, and that is written as a two player game so people won't generally be playing it in "open gaming" formats.

In short, no one who dislikes this game should wind up playing it. So it should only get high ratings.

Being the only game that doesn't follow a bell curve is an indication of something very wrong.


That's a problem with almost every game. If everyone that's not interested in Agricola would play it and rate it, it's ranking would be much lower. I've never played it and have no interest in doing so, so I've not rated it.

Ratings are usually by people that are at least interested enough to give a game a try, and even though SH is expensive, you could try it out at many game shops or even find someone that owns a copy for you to try. So it's not like it's impossible to play unless you spend 100$...

BTW, Agricola's ratings don't look much like a bell curve to me either, but I see no one complaining about it...
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The solution to dishonest ratings is not more dishonest ratings. It is honest ratings, i.e. ratings based on the actual experience of playing the game and nothing else. Not other people's ratings, not alleged "hype," not a desire to combat shilling, or anything else.

The only thing that dishonest ratings do are send a message that we, as a little internet subculture, are okay with dishonesty and consider it an acceptable way to get what we want. Every time you dishonestly rate a game to combat the perceived dishonesty of someone else, you merely justify their dishonesty in the first place. And then have no room to criticize it, because you've made yourself a hypocrite.
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Andrew Kluessendorf
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I think everyone who loves Space Hulk should go back and give "1"s to the other games in the top 10. Then other people who love those games will attach Space Hulk even more. The games in the top 10 will plummet and we will end up with a new top 10 of truly deserving, not overly-hyped games!

Bring on the war!

(P.S Maybe this is why Space Hulk is being listed as a "Wargame")
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Bruce Murphy
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I plan to rate it a 1 if it wins our current battle and forces me to buy a second copy just in case. I'll show it.

B>
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David Peacock
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I don't understand why someone who hasn't played rates it a one.
but the worst thing is,
I don't get what you guys are obsessing about.

A few 25 ratings of 1 vs 500 hundreds of 10s, so what if they are a few 1s? I'm pretty sure every game in the top 10 has that.

The game reached the top 10, you guys should be happy and not worry about a few suckers who are trying to drag the game down.



Disclaimer: No I haven't played nor rated the game, and yes I'm not happy to see it reach that high, the same way I didn't like Dominion getting in, and Agricola before that, because it is diluting the amount of games I own who are in the top 10.
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Louis Sylvester
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My first game of Agricola was pretty awful. Bad enough I avoided it completely for about a year and a half. Then I played Le Havre and my gaming group enjoyed it so much, I started to second guess my original experience with Agricola. So I bought it and played a couple games.

And really had a great time.

My point being that my initial rating was certainly too low, but was at least based on an actual playing experience. I'm glad I gave the game a second chance. I wouldn't have were it not for the TONS of support the BGG community gives it.

As for Space Hulk, I don't think it's going to dominate any large gatherings of gamers (since it is a 2 player game). I can understand how people might be influenced to pick it up (if they can find it) because it is currently living in the top ten. I say great. It's a solid game that deserves some attention.
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Daniel Corban
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ErisQuilty wrote:
So, my question is why does anyone care?

By your posting of this question, you have demonstrated that you care. Why?
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Louis Sylvester
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Quote:
Quote:
ErisQuilty wrote:
So, my question is why does anyone care?

dcorban wrote:
By your posting of this question, you have demonstrated that you care. Why?


I'm not sure your question is actually the if/then statement you think it is.

My question is why do people care if Space Hulk is "over"-rated? I care about the ratings system because I use it to guide me as I look into new games. I never claimed not to value the rating system. Because I use the rating system to guide my investigation of games, I DO care that the system remain honest (i.e. that ratings are given according to an actual take on the game and not in an effort to alter the position of a game's standing.)

I do NOT care if my favorite games are in the top ten or if my least favorite games are "over-rated." As I mentioned, I'm not a fan of Tigris & Euphrates, but I do not "care" that it is listed in the top ten.

I suspect that people who rate popular games with a 1 simply to bring down the rating (as opposed to honestly hating the game) are somehow invested in "their" game being highest ranked. Maybe they feel vindicated in their game taste if the BGG community also loves their favorite game. Maybe they feel left out if a game they don't love breaks the top ten.
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Bob Roberts

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Because a lot of people are this guy?

http://xkcd.com/386/
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Juha Linnanen
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I haven't played any version of Space Hulk, but for me this just shows why having different editions as their own items skews the rating system. I would have liked to see Space Hulk, which already is in the top 100, go up because of the new edition. In that entry, there are still also the votes of people that have tried the game but didn't like it that much. Now it seems that most of the people rating it are fans of the game. Again, that's how it seems to me - I haven't played it so I cannot really know. I'm sure there are some of you that are new to the game system and genuinely love it as well.

I can see the argument that a different edition has completely reworked rules to have it's own item, but in what I have read about the rule changes, I don't think that is the case here. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
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Slev Sleddeddan
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What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
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pillar wrote:
I can see the argument that a different edition has completely reworked rules to have it's own item, but in what I have read about the rule changes, I don't think that is the case here. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.


That's an argument even amongst the SH fans!

Second edition is considered something of an abomination, changing many fundamental rules, and most agree should be a different entry.

Third edition owes more to first than second, but there are a raft of small and subtle changes. It's much like the difference between the original Age of Steam, and Steam.
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