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Richard III: The Wars of the Roses» Forums » Rules

Subject: Question about event cards with an AP value rss

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Eddie B
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Played the game twice today and the rules are quite clear. However, I have one question.

The rules under 5.1 say that with the event card you play both the AP value and the event. Now the Piracy card is quite clear and says that you have to spend the 2 AP on sea movement, but how about the Treason card for example? The card says I can move one group and there is a "1 AP" on the card. So does that mean I can move one group and use the 1 AP to move another group or recruit an army?

Same question would apply for the Force March (1 AP) and Surprise (1 AP) card.

Thanks.
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Albert Hernandez
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My understanding is that the event text is separate from the action point so you can actually move 2 armies total. 1 per the event + 1 per the action point.
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Eddie B
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Yeah, that's how we played it as well. Only the Piracy card specifically states you have to use the 2 AP on sea movement.

Thanks.
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Grant Dalgliesh
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No, this is not the intent.

The movement-type event cards like Force March, Surprise and Treason have 1 AP that allows one group move only. Its written as move one group because we don't allow the 1 AP to be used to Recruit.
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Sisyphean Gamestacker
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Oops. We did that one wrong. In that case, Albert, I choose to take out that unit in Kent instead of fighting a massive battle in Middlesex.
 
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Eddie B
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Wow, that makes these 3 event cards with 1AP even weaker than we first thought...
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Lee Troutman
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burrie wrote:
Wow, that makes these 3 event cards with 1AP even weaker than we first thought...


I don't know..., in the right circumstances...

I used a "Force March" to have the Duke of York & his army descend on Henry VI and 1 other block with the Lancastrians out of position to reinforce. The King was forced to flee (ultimately all the way to France), and Richard ended up usurping the throne at the end of that campaign.
 
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Eddie B
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Agreed, in the right circumstance. We just wondered how often that really happens though. Anyhow, we decided we would give it a couple more tries using the official rules. If we still don't like it we might go back to the wrong way of playing it (you get the action and 1 AP).

Eddie
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Brandon Ketchum
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Is there going to be an errata released, then? The rules explicity say:

Quote:
Both the AP value and
event are played, although with APø only
the event is played.


I'm not going to quibble with the designer; his word is law. I think an errata needs issued to help out players that might not dig into these threads.

Eddie and I had played two games the other day, and both noted that the event cards can really screw you over, especially now that only the actual event can be played. If you have mustering, for example, with absolutely no use for it in the campaign, that one simple card draw could ruin your campaign. It didn't mess up our games, though, so I won't overreact to it for the nonce.
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Patrick Shirley
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Grant wrote:
No, this is not the intent.

The movement-type event cards like Force March, Surprise and Treason have 1 AP that allows one group move only. Its written as move one group because we don't allow the 1 AP to be used to Recruit.


So Piracy states that the APs must be used for sea movement and Muster and Plague have AP = 0 (going from memory here, played on a friend's copy), so that begs the question was it the point of the rule:

5.1...Both the AP value and
event are played


since the event in every case describes what is to be done.

I agree with Eddie B, very well written and concise rules except for this one point which both my opponent and I found confusing.
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Mark Buckley
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As an additional question (which may be moot depending on the answers to the questions above), if a card has AP and Event and you resolve both, do you resolve them in any particular order (Event->AP, or AP->Event), or can you choose?

cheers,

Mark
 
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Ender Wiggins
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Grant wrote:
The movement-type event cards like Force March, Surprise and Treason have 1 AP that allows one group move only. Its written as move one group because we don't allow the 1 AP to be used to Recruit.

With all due respect, this is not at all clear from the rules. On the contrary, I find it rather compelling that the rules clearly state under 5.1 "Both the AP value and event are played." That implies that the event is something distinct from the AP value, and that the event does not contribute to the AP. The suggested interpretation quoted above implies that in some instances (Force March, Surprise, Treason) the AP is used up by the event, but in other instances it is not - which is inconsistent.



If the intent of the rules was that action points only be used for the event, then the text of the rules I just cited (5.1) needs revision. Or alternatively the text on the cards needs to be changed:
a) all event cards could be listed with 0 AP (which could have the downside of affecting initiative if both players play event cards); or
b) the text on Surprise/Treason/Force March could be more explicit like it is on the Piracy card, and state that the AP must be used toward the event.
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Rick Weckermann
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Quote:
My understanding is that the event text is separate from the action point so you can actually move 2 armies total. 1 per the event + 1 per the action point.

Quote:
With all due respect, this is not at all clear from the rules. On the contrary, I find it rather compelling that the rules clearly state under 5.1 "Both the AP value and event are played." That implies that the event is something distinct from the AP value, and that the event does not contribute to the AP. The suggested interpretation quoted above implies that in some instances (Force March, Surprise, Treason) the AP is used up by the event, but in other instances it is not - which is inconsistent.

Overall i like consistency, and only see using both AP and event helps Lancaster more overall. The official way may not be the best way to play cards. It is tough enough finding opponents, inconsistencies like this are a major turn off.
 
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Patrick Shirley
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Looks like they've since cleaned this up in the latest rules since this thread started:

Both the AP value and
event are played, but the APs must be used
only for that event.


My original question still remains however, since the text of the event in every case describes exactly what actions to take then deleting this rule is functionally equivalent... what is the point of this rule???
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Rick Weckermann
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We really are talking about are the 3 event cards with 1 AP value. After several games both ways, i have found using both AP and wording on card is more realistic and logical for these cards.

1 Surprise; The card i would think implies a surprise attack, the only surprise here is you made an attack, but could not bring reinforcements. If you can use the 1 extra AP then you have an option of another move/attack, bringing another unit on board, or moving a group to supporting your surprise attack.

1 Force March; Again why would i force march part of my army unless it was to support an attack, or forced march to make an attack that can not be supported?

1 Treason; The wording on card implied 2 attacks are possible by the wording "One treachery roll can be made in any battle before it begins" The second battle could be initiated by your opponent, but this is not clear. Again i will say who makes an attack without support/reinforcements? A poor option for Lancaster if the 1 AP is not available for support.

The wording is poor and consistency in the cards is best. As mentioned i have played both ways and prefer to use that 1 AP in addition to what is on the event card as it makes more sense, is consistent and clearer in understanding wording on all event cards.

Edit
Quote:
Its written as move one group because we don't allow the 1 AP to be used to Recruit.

I can agree with not allowing the 1 AP for recruiting as a rule unique to the event cards, but allow the 1 AP to help with reinforcements, or another move at least.
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Alan Eshelman
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Quote:
Event cards have a special action defined on the card. Both the AP value and event are played, but the APs must be used only for that event. Event card priority still applies – e.g, event card APø has higher priority than a normal AP4.

I thought I'd update this thread with a rulebook clarification; the most recent revision of rule 5.1 resolves the issue.
The Event cards with an AP number greater than 0 end up expending those AP by doing their specified special actions printed on the card. While I agree this makes the event cards less palatable, I don't think they were meant to be "all that + chips", just different.

The AP number is there for two likely reasons:
1) it states the number of AP / Moves you can make associated with that event.
2) it puts a value out there to help determine who is player 1 if both play Event cards.
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