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Subject: The Plan of Salvation - http://blip.tv/file/1755869/ rss

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David Smith
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http://blip.tv/file/1755869/
 
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If Actions Speak Louder Than Words, Then Actions x2 Speak Louder Than Actions
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Ah! Blind link!
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Jeff
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Wow, a 50-minute Christian PowerPoint, presented with no commentary whatsoever.

Compelling.
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Wray Cason
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ExcitingJeff wrote:
Wow, a 50-minute Christian PowerPoint, presented with no commentary whatsoever.

Compelling.

Agreed. Some sort of context regarding the post would be helpful.
 
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His user page has a Christian microbadge and says that he introduces people to "strategy board gaming and Jesus, the latter being infinitely more important."

From this, and the lack of anything to the contrary, I think its reasonable to assume that he approves of the presentation, "God's Plan of Salvation". The Plan looks like a series of points with Biblical verses to support and expand on each one.

Seems we can choose to have certainty, by having a prescriptive belief system, uncertainty by questioning everything or have a mix of each.
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I guess if the latter is infinitely more important, he must not spend any time at all introducing people to strategy board gaming.
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lotus dweller
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dysjunct wrote:
I guess if the latter is infinitely more important, he must not spend any time at all introducing people to strategy board gaming.

You assume a division of time directly related to the relative importance of tasks.
This is a serious error when analysing human behaviour.
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Chad Ellis
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It's also possible that introducing people to board games serves as a means to the more important end.
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I'm willing to bet this was posted in RSP as it was deemed the group most in need of a plan of salvation.
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Wrayman wrote:
ExcitingJeff wrote:
Wow, a 50-minute Christian PowerPoint, presented with no commentary whatsoever.

Compelling.

Agreed. Some sort of context regarding the post would be helpful.


Why don't you "search the Scriptures" to see whether these things are so? Or, do you not have faith in them and look rather to the imaginary tales told by Joseph Smith?
 
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Wray Cason
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caltexn wrote:
Wrayman wrote:
ExcitingJeff wrote:
Wow, a 50-minute Christian PowerPoint, presented with no commentary whatsoever.

Compelling.

Agreed. Some sort of context regarding the post would be helpful.


Why don't you "search the Scriptures" to see whether these things are so? Or, do you not have faith in them and look rather to the imaginary tales told by Joseph Smith?
I don't understand your post. I was commenting that the link with no comments or questions of any kind was odd. It is hard to know how to respond to that.

You are apparently seeking some response regarding the folly of Mormonism. I would like to respond if I understood your point better.
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Chad Ellis
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caltexn wrote:
imaginary tales


"Batman, what is it? The Joker? The Riddler? Who set off the Bat Crime-in-Progress Detector?"

"Don't worry, Robin, it's actually the Bat Irony Detector. Apparently a Young Earth Creationist was mocking someone for believing in imaginary tales."

"Gosh, Batman, they sure do sound alike."
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Stephen Sanders
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
caltexn wrote:
imaginary tales


"Batman, what is it? The Joker? The Riddler? Who set off the Bat Crime-in-Progress Detector?"

"Don't worry, Robin, it's actually the Bat Irony Detector. Apparently a Young Earth Creationist was mocking someone for believing in imaginary tales."

"Gosh, Batman, they sure do sound alike."


Man, you have got the best sense of humor. That's why I like you guys.

Oh, and as for imaginary evidence, well, there's a mountain of physical evidence all over the earth of a worldwide flood...let's see to start with...shell fossils on mountains...human footprints in the Cretaceous and other layers...Are those imagined, or have we not documented these things scientifically? Here with these things (and so many other evidences), its a matter of interpretation.
 
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Wrayman wrote:
caltexn wrote:
Wrayman wrote:
ExcitingJeff wrote:
Wow, a 50-minute Christian PowerPoint, presented with no commentary whatsoever.

Compelling.

Agreed. Some sort of context regarding the post would be helpful.


Why don't you "search the Scriptures" to see whether these things are so? Or, do you not have faith in them and look rather to the imaginary tales told by Joseph Smith?
I don't understand your post. I was commenting that the link with no comments or questions of any kind was odd. It is hard to know how to respond to that.

You are apparently seeking some response regarding the folly of Mormonism. I would like to respond if I understood your point better.


I was using you as bait to see how many detractors of Christianity would come to your defense, which was nill, compared to how many come to my defense when I receive such comments which is also virtually nill. I know it was mean-spirited, and for that I apologize.
 
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Ken
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caltexn wrote:
Oh, and as for imaginary evidence, well, there's a mountain of physical evidence all over the earth of a worldwide flood...


No, there isn't. You have to misread the actual evidence to find this.

Quote:
let's see to start with...shell fossils on mountains...


Which occur because tectonic activity pushes mountains up where water used to be, exposing rocks that were previously submerged, not because there was a flood.

Quote:
human footprints in the Cretaceous and other layers...


Don't actually exist and have either been shown to be frauds, fakes, or misinterpretations of non-human, natural processes.

Quote:
Are those imagined, or have we not documented these things scientifically? Here with these things (and so many other evidences), its a matter of interpretation.


No, it's a matter of misinterpretation. You only find scientific evidence for the history cited in the Bible if you misinterpret the actual scientific evidence. This is but one of many websites that discuss what you're referring to and demonstrate that the science doesn't say what you're saying it says.

I've literally no problems with just about any religious belief system. But when that belief system requires interpreting scientific fact and evidence wrong either to support itself or to carry a message to others, that's far beyond acceptable.
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caltexn wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
caltexn wrote:
imaginary tales


"Batman, what is it? The Joker? The Riddler? Who set off the Bat Crime-in-Progress Detector?"

"Don't worry, Robin, it's actually the Bat Irony Detector. Apparently a Young Earth Creationist was mocking someone for believing in imaginary tales."

"Gosh, Batman, they sure do sound alike."


Man, you have got the best sense of humor. That's why I like you guys.

Oh, and as for imaginary evidence, well, there's a mountain of physical evidence all over the earth of a worldwide flood...let's see to start with...shell fossils on mountains...human footprints in the Cretaceous and other layers...Are those imagined, or have we not documented these things scientifically? Here with these things (and so many other evidences), its a matter of interpretation.

Are you serious? Shell fossils on mountains are explained by plate tectonics, and those human footprints were a scam (of course).
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HavocIsHere wrote:
caltexn wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
caltexn wrote:
imaginary tales


"Batman, what is it? The Joker? The Riddler? Who set off the Bat Crime-in-Progress Detector?"

"Don't worry, Robin, it's actually the Bat Irony Detector. Apparently a Young Earth Creationist was mocking someone for believing in imaginary tales."

"Gosh, Batman, they sure do sound alike."


Man, you have got the best sense of humor. That's why I like you guys.

Oh, and as for imaginary evidence, well, there's a mountain of physical evidence all over the earth of a worldwide flood...let's see to start with...shell fossils on mountains...human footprints in the Cretaceous and other layers...Are those imagined, or have we not documented these things scientifically? Here with these things (and so many other evidences), its a matter of interpretation.

Are you serious? Shell fossils on mountains are explained by plate tectonics, and those human footprints were a scam (of course).


You and Ken are parrotting what you have heard without examining carefully that the plate techtonics theory is just that - a theory that absolutely cannot be proven because it obviously cannot be observed or duplicated. Although I agree in the fundamental premise of plate techtonics elevating these fossils, it does not follow that they would have survived drastic movements of such magnitude at the levels they are found today. Do some more reading on this to at least get another view.

And those footprints! It is very convenient to call them fake, post it on the interet and have some PBS or other media follow these false claims. They are real, have been documented by at least one geologist that I personally know, and I myself was involved in damming and draining the portion of the Paluxy River bed containing a small portion of these numersous human footprints (bible.ca/prints) and literally placed my hand inside the prints containing the dino/human combination. This very print was shortly after hacked into oblivian by an evolutionist. This is the kind of research and attitude that creation scientists face, and then have to endure criticism that their viewpoints are simply driven by belief in the Bible - which I submit is simply a smokescreen to thwart legitimate scientific inquiry the real religion - evolutionism.
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Chad Ellis
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caltexn wrote:
Oh, and as for imaginary evidence, well, there's a mountain of physical evidence all over the earth of a worldwide flood...let's see to start with...shell fossils on mountains...human footprints in the Cretaceous and other layers...Are those imagined, or have we not documented these things scientifically? Here with these things (and so many other evidences), its a matter of interpretation.


It's a matter of interpretation in much only in the most extreme sense. It's sort of like if a guy in a bar punches another guy in the face, breaking his nose and knocking him to the floor. It could be that he sincerely believed that the other guy was about to get shot in the head and that the only way to save him was to knock him down...

Shells on mountains? Land uplift -- a process we observe today -- explains this. Moreover, the shells are manifestly not consistent with them having been deposited by a global flood, since floods tend to erode hills and sediment ends up in valleys, not peaks.

As for the human tracks...well, you can choose between "imagined" and "invented" but even many creationists have accepted that they are not real. For example:

http://www.biblicalcreation.org.uk/scientific_issues/bcs106....

http://creation.com/human-and-dinosaur-fossil-footprints

http://www.icr.org/article/paluxy-river-mystery/
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Stephen Sanders
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
caltexn wrote:
Oh, and as for imaginary evidence, well, there's a mountain of physical evidence all over the earth of a worldwide flood...let's see to start with...shell fossils on mountains...human footprints in the Cretaceous and other layers...Are those imagined, or have we not documented these things scientifically? Here with these things (and so many other evidences), its a matter of interpretation.


It's a matter of interpretation in much only in the most extreme sense. It's sort of like if a guy in a bar punches another guy in the face, breaking his nose and knocking him to the floor. It could be that he sincerely believed that the other guy was about to get shot in the head and that the only way to save him was to knock him down...

Shells on mountains? Land uplift -- a process we observe today -- explains this. Moreover, the shells are manifestly not consistent with them having been deposited by a global flood, since floods tend to erode hills and sediment ends up in valleys, not peaks.

As for the human tracks...well, you can choose between "imagined" and "invented" but even many creationists have accepted that they are not real. For example:

http://www.biblicalcreation.org.uk/scientific_issues/bcs106....

http://creation.com/human-and-dinosaur-fossil-footprints

http://www.icr.org/article/paluxy-river-mystery/


Excellent links Chad - you do your homework. I need to be clearer about the Paluxy River investigation that I refered to. This was not done at the public park museum, but was on private property. I provided the link to bible.ca/prints so you could view the extensive documentation of these prints.

I want to point out a quote from the one essay in the third link by John Morris of ICR:

This team of four was comprised of Drs. Laurie Godfrey, John Cole, Steven Schafersman, and Ronnie Hastings, and with the exception of Hastings, has as yet done little fieldwork. On the other hand, the Paluxy project has been the site of numerous creationist field studies, since, while the creation model is not dependent on the Paluxy evidence, the claim has always provided an easily understood illustration of the creation model. The two most widely circulated and accepted sources were the 1973 film, "Footprints in Stone," 4 produced by the late Stan Taylor, of Films for Christ, Inc., and this author's 1980 book, Tracking Those Incredible Dinosaurs and the People Who Knew Them. 5

Notice that one of the four researchers mentioned that did any field work is Hastings. He is the one reportedly observed leaving the river with a pick-axe by the land owners, after which one print containing a human inside dinosaur was found to be mutilated. He and Glen Kuban have been on a personal crusade to attempt to discredit the documented research in this area, and have succeeded in causing even some creationists to become intimidated and back off.
 
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caltexn wrote:
You and Ken are parrotting....


I'm sorry, but when you call citing actual, peer-reviewed, tested, evaluated, and accepted scientific theories and evidence "parroting," you've failed. When you say that scientists have failed to evaluate evidence and that their findings are "false claims," you've failed.

I respect your religious beliefs, and you're free to hold them. But if you are unwilling to accept the idea that they are a lens that you are viewing things through that is coloring your position and not mine, then I think you've identified an issue with yourself and not with me.

Evolution is not a religion. It's a scientific theory. It is one that has been demonstrated to be accurate over and over and over again. If you would like to equate that with religious beliefs, that's fine. Just understand that it is not because it is backed through independent, repetitive, demonstrative scientific research that has stood the test of time.

Real scientific inquiry presumes that no source (Biblical or otherwise) is inherently correct before setting out on its investigation. That one will go where the evidence leads one, not to where one wishes the evidence to lead. I'd submit that your view of scientific endeavor and inquiry fails to accommodate this basic precept.
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caltexn wrote:
plate techtonics theory is just that - a theory that absolutely cannot be proven because it obviously cannot be observed or duplicated.


Many of the processes (including land lift) are observed, and like other theories plate tectonics makes predictions which can be tested.

Quote:
Although I agree in the fundamental premise of plate techtonics elevating these fossils, it does not follow that they would have survived drastic movements of such magnitude at the levels they are found today.


What drastic movements? If we want to compare which process is more likely to leave shells undisturbed, by all means let's look at the two options under discussion:

1. A long and slow process gradually elevated the land -- so slowly as to be virtually undetectable.

2. A massive worldwide flood deposited shells on mountain peaks, contrary to typical flood behavior which would have deposited debris in valleys.

Quote:
And those footprints! It is very convenient to call them fake, post it on the interet and have some PBS or other media follow these false claims. They are real, have been documented by at least one geologist that I personally know, and I myself was involved in damming and draining the portion of the Paluxy River bed containing a small portion of these numersous human footprints (bible.ca/prints) and literally placed my hand inside the prints containing the dino/human combination.


While I'm sure that was very exciting and I don't doubt either your or your friend's sincerity, the fact remains that these prints did not hold up to scrutiny. Even the "peer review" of the creationist community has largely recognized them as dinosaur prints rather than human.
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caltexn wrote:
I need to be clearer about the Paluxy River investigation that I refered to.


Please point to a single article published in a major scientific periodical that has been published on Paluxy that has survived rigorous scrutiny by the scientific community as a whole.

When you can do that, it will cease to be a religious view and become a scientific one.
 
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perfalbion wrote:
caltexn wrote:
You and Ken are parrotting....


I'm sorry, but when you call citing actual, peer-reviewed, tested, evaluated, and accepted scientific theories and evidence "parroting," you've failed. When you say that scientists have failed to evaluate evidence and that their findings are "false claims," you've failed.

I respect your religious beliefs, and you're free to hold them. But if you are unwilling to accept the idea that they are a lens that you are viewing things through that is coloring your position and not mine, then I think you've identified an issue with yourself and not with me.

Evolution is not a religion. It's a scientific theory. It is one that has been demonstrated to be accurate over and over and over again. If you would like to equate that with religious beliefs, that's fine. Just understand that it is not because it is backed through independent, repetitive, demonstrative scientific research that has stood the test of time.

Real scientific inquiry presumes that no source (Biblical or otherwise) is inherently correct before setting out on its investigation. That one will go where the evidence leads one, not to where one wishes the evidence to lead. I'd submit that your view of scientific endeavor and inquiry fails to accommodate this basic precept.


Let me make two things clear: first, the creationist view does harmonize with Biblical truth, but that "lens" that I use, if that can be said, does not invalidate the scientific investigation and inquiry that follows. Second, some obsverations and the evidences given that support evolutionism is true or reasonable valid as theory, but the final interpretation is what I am taking issue with. The "parroting" that I referred to hits home personally with regard to the Paluxy River investigations because so many (even some creationists) have accepted what they have heard and dismissed this incredible amount of evidence. I was not referring to your all of your assessments and conclusions.
 
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caltexn wrote:
Let me make two things clear: first, the creationist view does harmonize with Biblical truth, but that "lens" that I use, if that can be said, does not invalidate the scientific investigation and inquiry that follows.


I'm sorry, but I can't see how this can be a valid statement when you're willing to discard the body of scientific work that shows your conclusions to be false despite the huge amount of evidence that this represents.

Quote:
Second, some obsverations and the evidences given that support evolutionism is true or reasonable valid as theory, but the final interpretation is what I am taking issue with. The "parroting" that I referred to hits home personally with regard to the Paluxy River investigations because so many (even some creationists) have accepted what they have heard and dismissed this incredible amount of evidence. I was not referring to your all of your assessments and conclusions.


Except that the Paluxy evidence that the scientific community has evaluated has been shown to be in error. Dinosaur tracks that had eroded, been partially filled with secondary sediment, or weren't tracks at all but chemical processes that caused things that looked like tracks were all shown to be at work.

The evidence you're referring to has not stood up to inquiry by other scientists. It has been shown to be caused by other processes that are far better explanations for the tracks observed. This means that your evidence is not scientific by the definition of scientific evidence - it does not stand up to scientific scrutiny.

Let your faith be what it is. It does not need physical proof to be valid and in seeking physical validation of it you appear to lessen both it and you.
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caltexn wrote:
This very print was shortly after hacked into oblivian by an evolutionist.


Quote:
Notice that one of the four researchers mentioned that did any field work is Hastings. He is the one observed leaving the river with the pick-axe by the land owners, after which one print containing a human inside dinosaur was found to be mutilated.


I think it's worth noting that what you originally claimed as fact is now revealed as unsupported inference. The best evidence you have to accuse someone of vandalism and willful suppression of the truth is that he was carrying a common tool around the time that the damage was found?

Quote:
He and Glen Kuban have been on a personal crusade to attempt to discredit the documented research in this area, and have succeeded in causing even some creationists to become intimidated and back off.


What basis do you have for claiming intimidation? On what grounds do you assert they are on a dishonest crusade rather than simply presenting the evidence as they understand it and arguing that the prints are not of dinosaurs?
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