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Space Hulk (third edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: A question about the parry rule rss

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Gregory Taft
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I am new to the game and I have a question I can't see any answers for on any of the forums.

Its about the way the dice are rolled in the event of a parry.

A friend and I dissagreed.

When the genestealer rolls 3 dice (2,6,6) and the highest is rerolled because of the parry rule. Do the remaining 2 die count when determining the highest roll?

My friend believes that when the highest die is picked for parrying that is the nominated die which will count in the calculation.

I find this hard to accept because it seems as if rolling 3 dice to begin with becomes redundant and its still 1 die against 1.

for example: If I was to roll (2,6,6), was made to reroll one of the 6's and it came up 3. the three would be my highest because the die in question had already been deemed as 'the highest' and at which point the remaining two die would have been discarded.

I hope this makes sence

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Mark Bigney
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If you roll a 2,6,6 and re-roll one 6, you still have the remaining leftover 6. So parry won't help you.
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Rob Corn
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All three dice still count, you just have to re-roll the highest single die and recalculate based on the new set of three dice.
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Jorge Arroyo
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Hmmm... we're talking about the power sword, rignt? the rules do say "re-roll his highest scoring dice" so both sixes should be re-rolled.

I seem to remember this having been discussed before...

Edit: And here I found an issue with the Spanish translation. In the Spanish rules it does say "re-roll his highest scoring die".
 
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Chakroun Karim
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maka wrote:
Hmmm... we're talking about the power sword, rignt? the rules do say "re-roll his highest scoring dice" so both sixes should be re-rolled.

I seem to remember this having been discussed before...

Edit: And here I found an issue with the Spanish translation. In the Spanish rules it does say "re-roll his highest scoring die".


I believe you only reroll one die, as in the 1st edition (deathwing expansion).

The problem with 'die/dice' is that you can use 'dice' as singular in english. That's what they chose to do in the 3rd edition rules; see p15, close assault example. ("The space marine rolls a single dice and scores 4.) Or in "Guard actions" 3rd paragraph : "Only one dice may be re-rolled,..."

So it's a problem of ambiguous writing, but from the original rules, you have to choose one die for the GS player to reroll.


 
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Jorge Arroyo
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Thanks, I didn't notice that... it certainly makes the rule ambiguous, but if right, then the Spanish translation would also be correct...

Was this rule included for the FAQ?
 
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Chakroun Karim
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maka wrote:
Thanks, I didn't notice that... it certainly makes the rule ambiguous, but if right, then the Spanish translation would also be correct...

Was this rule included for the FAQ?


yes it's in the list of questions in : http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/440187/
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pete lovatt
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as stated really, reroll one die, although it would be pointless if you rolled 2 6's or worse 3!
i had a friend roll 1,6,6 so i made him reroll the 1.
he rolled another 6.
beer makes space hulk fun

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J B
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I thought about this one also when first reading the rule. My own take on it would be that you could force them to re-roll both 6's or any highest score duplicate rolls. My logic for this is the rule book states you can force the attacker to reroll his highest scoring dice. By definition if 2 dice are the highest scoring then it means they are both re-rolled. I then applied my flavour/theme check and it also made sense. Imagine it as the GS comes at you with a vicious assault and the experienced Sergeant fends off the potentially killer blow(s) but the GS still comes back with a late strike(s).
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Kevin Outlaw
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As someone else has said, "dice" in the Space Hulk rulebook is used in the singular (die), so you only get to reroll one dice.
 
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J B
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
As someone else has said, "dice" in the Space Hulk rulebook is used in the singular (die), so you only get to reroll one dice.


We will need to wait for the GW FAQ to have the official answer but I feel my interpretation will win out. It follows common sense & logic which I think is a good foundation for any rule. Where is this other bit in the rules about dice that is leading you to the conclusion any dice are singular?
 
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Benoit Gascon
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carthaginian wrote:

I believe you only reroll one die, as in the 1st edition (deathwing expansion).

The problem with 'die/dice' is that you can use 'dice' as singular in english. That's what they chose to do in the 3rd edition rules; see p15, close assault example. ("The space marine rolls a single dice and scores 4.) Or in "Guard actions" 3rd paragraph : "Only one dice may be re-rolled,..."

So it's a problem of ambiguous writing, but from the original rules, you have to choose one die for the GS player to reroll.




Earlier in the replies JB ...
 
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Rob Corn
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The answer that will be in the FAQ/Q&A/Clarification (depending on what it's ultimately called) is that one single die is re-rolled. Although it will probably be called a dice. From what I've gathered that seems to be a Games Workshop thing.
 
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Adam Brant
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Chimaera wrote:
I thought about this one also when first reading the rule. My own take on it would be that you could force them to re-roll both 6's or any highest score duplicate rolls. My logic for this is the rule book states you can force the attacker to reroll his highest scoring dice. By definition if 2 dice are the highest scoring then it means they are both re-rolled. I then applied my flavour/theme check and it also made sense. Imagine it as the GS comes at you with a vicious assault and the experienced Sergeant fends off the potentially killer blow(s) but the GS still comes back with a late strike(s).


This makes much more logical sense to me as well. I'm going to go buy this rule until an official clarification comes around.

I don't really agree that 'dice' can also mean singular. I've never heard one die called a dice and thought that it was grammatically correct. It does say "one dice" in the SH rule book, but GW is wrong. There is no such thing as one dice.
 
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J B
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Medjai wrote:
carthaginian wrote:

I believe you only reroll one die, as in the 1st edition (deathwing expansion).

The problem with 'die/dice' is that you can use 'dice' as singular in english. That's what they chose to do in the 3rd edition rules; see p15, close assault example. ("The space marine rolls a single dice and scores 4.) Or in "Guard actions" 3rd paragraph : "Only one dice may be re-rolled,..."

So it's a problem of ambiguous writing, but from the original rules, you have to choose one die for the GS player to reroll.




Earlier in the replies JB ...


Understood that it is in DW but I don't have those rules to hand & can only interpret the 3rd edition ones. Really I think players should drop any reference to earleir editions/expansions and just serve up the Q's for the 3rd edition FAQ. Reference to previous rules can only serve to add to any confusion.

The problem is not the word dice. The problem is that GW didn't add 1,2, or 3 in front of most of their clarifications leading to some ambiguity as we can all see. In this case they didn't clarify what qualifies as highest scoring dice. In my opinion it should be all of the highest scoring dice of the same value.

Quote:
The answer that will be in the FAQ/Q&A/Clarification (depending on what it's ultimately called) is that one single die is re-rolled. Although it will probably be called a dice. From what I've gathered that seems to be a Games Workshop thing.


As mentioned this seemed to be covered in the DW expansion. I would still challenge it's logic and indeed how it sits with the theme/skill of parry. Indeed I would be very grateful to you Rob if you could feed this up to GW. Naturally I will abide by any official ruling.

 
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Kevin Outlaw
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Chimaera wrote:
Medjai wrote:
carthaginian wrote:

I believe you only reroll one die, as in the 1st edition (deathwing expansion).

The problem with 'die/dice' is that you can use 'dice' as singular in english. That's what they chose to do in the 3rd edition rules; see p15, close assault example. ("The space marine rolls a single dice and scores 4.) Or in "Guard actions" 3rd paragraph : "Only one dice may be re-rolled,..."

So it's a problem of ambiguous writing, but from the original rules, you have to choose one die for the GS player to reroll.




Earlier in the replies JB ...


Understood that it is in DW but I don't have those rules to hand & can only interpret the 3rd edition ones. Really I think players should drop any reference to earleir editions/expansions and just serve up the Q's for the 3rd edition FAQ. Reference to previous rules can only serve to add to any confusion.

The problem is not the word dice. The problem is that GW didn't add 1,2, or 3 in front of most of their clarifications leading to some ambiguity as we can all see. In this case they didn't clarify what qualifies as highest scoring dice. In my opinion it should be all of the highest scoring dice of the same value.

Quote:
The answer that will be in the FAQ/Q&A/Clarification (depending on what it's ultimately called) is that one single die is re-rolled. Although it will probably be called a dice. From what I've gathered that seems to be a Games Workshop thing.


As mentioned this seemed to be covered in the DW expansion. I would still challenge it's logic and indeed how it sits with the theme/skill of parry. Indeed I would be very grateful to you Rob if you could feed this up to GW. Naturally I will abide by any official ruling.



Er... Those are quotes from 3rd ed rules.
 
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J B
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Quote:
Er... Those are quotes from 3rd ed rules.


This was the bit I was mainly referring to.

Quote:
I believe you only reroll one die, as in the 1st edition (deathwing expansion).


Coming on to the other points.

Quote:
That's what they chose to do in the 3rd edition rules; see p15, close assault example. ("The space marine rolls a single dice and scores 4.)


All the Marines roll a single dice in close assault except Claudio. This example is relevant to the character depicted. I am sure if Claudio was in the example it would read different.

Quote:
Or in "Guard actions" 3rd paragraph : "Only one dice may be re-rolled,..."


If you read the paragraph above it makes no reference to 1 dice. I think the third paragraph was once again thrown in for Claudio's benefit. Basically both paragraphs clarify guard and it is not an ambiguous rule. It is also logical in a roundabout way.
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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The point is, all the way through the rules "dice" is used to mean one dice as well as multiple dice.

Page 15: The genestealer player rolls three dice for the genestealer and uses the single dice with the highest roll.

Page 15: The space marine rolls a 4 but as he is on guard he can re-roll the dice.

And so on...

If you have to think about it thematically then consider the three dice as three separate "swings" at the marine. The marine gets to parry one of the three attacks.
 
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J B
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
The point is, all the way through the rules "dice" is used to mean one dice as well as multiple dice.

Page 15: The genestealer player rolls three dice for the genestealer and uses the single dice with the highest roll.

Page 15: The space marine rolls a 4 but as he is on guard he can re-roll the dice.

And so on...

If you have to think about it thematically then consider the three dice as three separate "swings" at the marine. The marine gets to parry one of the three attacks.


Why did they put the 4th paragraph in guard then?

Or thematically you could think of it this way

Quote:
Imagine it as the GS comes at you with a vicious assault and the experienced Sergeant fends off the potentially killer blow(s) but the GS still comes back with a late strike(s).


I guess it all comes down to which you think is more logical and in keeping with the theme + also in keeping with the Parry skill and the Sergeants rank/experience.

Does it really make sense that if two 6's are rolled Parry only allows you to reroll one. It defeats the point of Parry. Remember the GS rolls three dice to signify the strength of its melee attack not the number of individual attacks made within it.
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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I only put in the "thematic" thing to counter your "thematic" argument. Thematics are no good for actually confirming a rule. There is another post somewhere on BGG that made me laugh because someone gave a list of phoney rules that could be derived based on theme - of course my marine doesn't block LOS to the marine behind him, he would obviously lean to one side - that sort of thing.

Anyway - my point was only that dice is used in the singular through the whole rulebook. When combined with the fact that the ability to reroll (potentially) all of the dice is super powerful (if a stealer throws three 6s he deserves to win, dammit!), stealers are supposed to have the upper hand in close assault (moreso against the power sword than the hammer, as power sword also comes with a nifty gun), and also Haggis is getting his answers on an unofficial level from GW, leads me to believe that they intended a single dice to be rerolled.

Of course, people can play the way they prefer, even once the official FAQ is released.
 
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J B
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Quote:
I only put in the "thematic" thing to counter your "thematic" argument. Thematics are no good for actually confirming a rule. There is another post somewhere on BGG that made me laugh because someone gave a list of phoney rules that could be derived based on theme - of course my marine doesn't block LOS to the marine behind him, he would obviously lean to one side - that sort of thing.


My logic always comes first (see my posts). The thematic thing is the sanity check if you want to call it that.

Quote:
(if a stealer throws three 6s he deserves to win, dammit!),


Not against my hard as nails Lorenzo it doesn't

Quote:
Of course, people can play the way they prefer, even once the official FAQ is released.


I would always rather play the way the designer intended even if this sometimes opposes my view.
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Kevin Outlaw
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Chimaera wrote:


I would always rather play the way the designer intended even if this sometimes opposes my view.


Totally agree with you there - I figure they must have playtested at least enough to know their way is balanced.
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J B
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
Chimaera wrote:


I would always rather play the way the designer intended even if this sometimes opposes my view.


Totally agree with you there - I figure they must have playtested at least enough to know their way is balanced.


QFT.
 
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Chakroun Karim
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Chimaera wrote:
Remember the GS rolls three dice to signify the strength of its melee attack not the number of individual attacks made within it.


This is the full quote from the Deathwing rulebook. I keep on coming back to the 1st edition rulebooks because GW said it was their intention to reverse to the purity of the '89 rules (read the white dwarf article)

Deathwing rulebook wrote:
Power swords are extremely effective weapons awarded to only the battle-proven best. Usually only Marine Captains possess them, although Marine Sergeants who have shown extreme bravery are sometimes awarded one.

They give no pluses to the Marine’s close assault roll However, the Marine is able to parry one of the Genestealer ‘s attacks. After both sides roll, the Marine player can force the Genestealer player to reroll one of the three dice he rolled. The new roll stands - even if better than the original roll.

The Marine can parry only when he is facing his opponent. He cannot parry attacks from the side or rear. The Marine is never forced to parry - if he is satisfied with the Genestealer’s rolls, he can always let them stand.

Example of Parrying
A Captain attacks a Stealer. He rolls a 3; this, with his +2 close assault skill, gives him a final score of 5. The Stealer rolls 2, 3 and 5. At this moment, the combat is tied. The Marine player decides to parry, forcing the Genestealer player to reroll his highest dice - the 5. Unfortunately, the Stealer rolls a 6, killing the Captain.


note the optimistic example.
 
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The Galaxy is Just Packed!
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maka wrote:
Hmmm... we're talking about the power sword, rignt? the rules do say "re-roll his highest scoring dice" so both sixes should be re-rolled.


Games Workshop has been calling a single die "a dice" for decades. Drives me freaking nuts.
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