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Subject: So, which rule/mission set is better? rss

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Matt Thrower
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I'm surprised that there hasn't been more discussion of which is the better set of rules and missions. Maybe it's because not enough people have played the older version but I'd be really interested in hearing thoughts on this. Here's mine to start the ball rolling.

Missions

There are a number of small changes to the missions in 3rd edition. For the most part these are good and sensible: tweaks to the balance and slight changes to maps which make them marginally easier to construct.

One thing I don't like though is the "D6 for victory" win condition. There are 2-3 scenarios which use this and in the original scenarios the win condition was a fixed number (usually six). I much prefer the fixed number - the goal is clear and there's no chance of a marine player getting a last-minute lucky win after clearing one terminator off the board.

I haven't used the Broolord yet but he looks scarily powerful, possibly too much so. The only sensible way to deal with him is to use the assault cannon.

Marines

The marine squad changes are interesting. At first glance they make the squads rather more powerful. A free power sword for one sergeant and a rather more versatile assault cannon instead of a flamer. However the sergeant with the storm hammer is the counter-balance: he's actually something of a liability as a 1-2 roll is still likely to be beaten by a stealer. I never much liked close-combat marines as it spoils the flavour of the game somewhat so I definately prefer the older squad listings.

The Librarian is a huge improvement over the old rules. I'd certainly use the new one every time, even if he just had 10PP like the older missions did.

Individual Rules

The movement and LOS changes generally seem to make sense and don't actually make much difference to the game at all, they just appear to be more intuitive.

I'm not so sure on the shooting and overwatch changes. Overwatch at relatively close range used to feel like an act of desperation and that seems right to me. At long range you don't need the 5-to-hit rule and jams are inconsequential in any case. Plus, the gradual improvements on aimed shots in the older rules sometimes made for really agonising choices between taking another shot and switching to overwatch which was fun, and is now missing.

I like the guard rule though. It's another choice for the marine player to make and it renders Terminators slightly less vulnerable in close combat which makes them suitably more fearsome. The manner in which 'stealers can usually rip a marine to shreds in a single attack never sat well with the GW fluff.
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Branko K.
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MattDP wrote:

One thing I don't like though is the "D6 for victory" win condition. There are 2-3 scenarios which use this and in the original scenarios the win condition was a fixed number (usually six). I much prefer the fixed number ...


Well the easy "fix" is to roll for victory condition BEFORE the actual game, so you know what you need to achieve in advance. Also, I think once the players are experienced they will probably know which "preset" number plays the best so they will use *that* one instead of rolling.


MattDP wrote:
However the sergeant with the storm hammer is the counter-balance: he's actually something of a liability as a 1-2 roll is still likely to be beaten by a stealer.


This mofo is actually quite irritating, especially if he is on guard. I hate missions which can downgrade to "trying to beat the hammer sergeant".. once I lost Mission 3 as a GS simply because I couldn't kill the bastard and the SM player got a string of lucky rolls which led the C.A.T. straight to the exit.


I never much liked close-combat marines as it spoils the flavour of the game somewhat so I definately prefer the older squad listings.

MattDP wrote:
Overwatch at relatively close range used to feel like an act of desperation and that seems right to me. At long range you don't need the 5-to-hit rule and jams are inconsequential in any case. Plus, the gradual improvements on aimed shots in the older rules sometimes made for really agonising choices between taking another shot and switching to overwatch which was fun, and is now missing.


After a few games, I'm inclined to agree. It seems that now overwatch is ALWAYS the better choice when you have to do a stationary shot. I never really played with the old rules, but I guess that jamming risk was really nerve-wrenching; now it's just "oh, a jam. Well I'll be damned. This is oh-so slightly inconvenient."

MattDP wrote:
I like the guard rule though. It's another choice for the marine player to make and it renders Terminators slightly less vulnerable in close combat which makes them suitably more fearsome. The manner in which 'stealers can usually rip a marine to shreds in a single attack never sat well with the GW fluff.


I see the "guard" order only there to make those pure CC marines even harder to kill, I have yet to see someone using it on a "normal" marine. And I must say I don't think it's much of an addition, the game might have just as well shipped without it.
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しんぶん赤旗
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The people I play hulk with have tried the new rules but we have continued to use the original rules. The changes to overwatch are too much and while guard is much more balanced we prefer to just stick with the original rather than making a blend of the two editions.

I do however plan to try the two genestealer missions using the psychic rules from 3rd edition (hybrids and magus will get 5 power points per level that will be tracked by keeping a die next to the figure after it is revealed).
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Matt Thrower
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bolter wrote:
The people I play hulk with have tried the new rules but we have continued to use the original rules. The changes to overwatch are too much and while guard is much more balanced we prefer to just stick with the original rather than making a blend of the two editions.


How do they feel about the changes to marine squads?

bolter wrote:
I do however plan to try the two genestealer missions using the psychic rules from 3rd edition (hybrids and magus will get 5 power points per level that will be tracked by keeping a die next to the figure after it is revealed).


Be careful doing this. I've tried a similar system allowing hybrids to use the power for AP instead of PP and found that the powers used against the marines are a bit too much. Force barrier can stop an entire squad from moving, for example, as marines tend to bunch up more than stealers, and the ability to use a no LOS attack with a high success rate against targets that don't replenish themselves is devastating.
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The Uruisge
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Good points there.


I was always concerned about the changes to the Marine squads, having variation instead of the two same squads... but then I just think well, this is a different edition. It's something that distinguishes it from the old rules. so why not? I can play 1st edition if I want two exact same squads; I just need to find 2 of my old Termies


I think the question might be slightly subjective though. The rules have been tweaked a bit. Here and there. Some people have expressed dislike for these small changes, but whether it is from a nostalgic viewpoint or being taken out of their comfort zones (from knowing the rules well), or just a simple dislike of the new rules is the key. I love 1st edition, and I pretty much know hte rules like the back of my hand. I haven't had the opportunity to play 3rd edition yet (but I'm painting up me figs!) but after reading the rules I just thought they were a fairly logical progression. Didn't think anything of it. Sure there are some concerns, those featured above, but in general they seem OK, and I'm sure I'll enjoy the game just as much as I did when I was knee-high to a termagant.
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Neil Christiansen
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I prefer the 1st edition rules for everything except librarians.

Jamming used to be important and there were decisions to be made about overwatch. Not now. I prefer no sustained fire on OW and the full sustained fire reduction for normal fire.

Not sure I like the re-draw of CPs either.

On the whole, looks like they were trying to beef up the SMs, but the right way to do that was in proper scenario balance, not rules tweaking.

As far as missions go, many of us would have liked to see the classic missions re-constructed or even new ones and were disappointed with the recycle.

Changing the forces of missions was okay, but could do that with points provided in Deathwing and Genestealer anyway. And I do not think the force changes were carefully thought out or playtested with those missions, just "how can we get the DW models amd weapons into the game.

Best part is the components BY FAR, and was worth my $.

But last week I was teaching the game and just used the 1st edition rules.
 
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Branko K.
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From my (limited) experience, only Mission 2 seems to be completely ruined by 3rd ed additions, the biggest culprit being "sustained overwatch". In other missions the new overwatch seems to work in GS favor since SM always wants to remain in OW and therefore advances much more slowly, giving the GS player more time to amass his forces, which somehow balances itself out.

I will use the 3rd edition rules until I am convinced SM are truly dominating the scenarios. If this happens, "sustained overwatch" is the first thing that will get nuked.

 
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Slev Sleddeddan
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baba44713 wrote:
From my (limited) experience, only Mission 2 seems to be completely ruined by 3rd ed additions, the biggest culprit being "sustained overwatch". In other missions the new overwatch seems to work in GS favor since SM always wants to remain in OW and therefore advances much more slowly, giving the GS player more time to amass his forces, which somehow balances itself out.

I will use the 3rd edition rules until I am convinced SM are truly dominating the scenarios. If this happens, "sustained overwatch" is the first thing that will get nuked.



Actually, I won this quite convincingly as 'Stealers. It's all about timing your attack to when the marines seem to have had a bad CP draw and you have a LARGE force built up.
 
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The Galaxy is Just Packed!
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I'll need to play WAY more games of 3rd ed before I make a call on it being better than 1st ed or not. So far I am enjoying 3rd ed. The gameplay is definitely more streamlined and the games go faster. Despite the new "move and turn" action the Stealers have, the Marines are even more powerful.

But until I have a better reason, I'll stick with 3rd ed. It's like I'm rediscovering the game. And that's pretty cool.

Edit: typos
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Erik Hultgren
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baba44713 wrote:
I see the "guard" order only there to make those pure CC marines even harder to kill, I have yet to see someone using it on a "normal" marine. And I must say I don't think it's much of an addition, the game might have just as well shipped without it.

The Guard order is actualy there so that they could nerf the CC marines general effectiveness some. Both CC setups got a 1 point reduction compared with 1st edition. So they are much less offensive then they used to be while about the same while under Guard. LC terminators used to be quite good for leading the way into twisting passages. But now so are they likely to run into bad luck sooner then later.
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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Guard is also a nice little bonus for the flamer marine, who can't go into overwatch. Gives him a bit more of a fighting chance if a stealer gets the drop on him.

I like the new guard rules, they create new tactical decisions - and giving the marine player more to think about is good, because it increases their chance of making the wrong decision under time pressure devil

I like the more streamlined rules for 3rd ed. They have caused a few issues (jammed doors replacing bulkheads on certain maps has created a bit of a problem), but overall I like them a lot.

I think better overwatch is thematic and forces the stealer players to be a bit cleverer with how they play. People often used to say it was dull to be the stealers, because you just had to run at the marines. I don't think that's the case any more.

Librarian rules are much better - nice and streamlined to the point where you don't even have to look the powers up when you are playing a game.

Downsides? It was fun to have two flamers in some missions, but you could always pretend your AC is a flamer model instead (or swap the model out if you can).

Everyone will have their favourites, and over time people will probably settle on a mix of the two rulesets to fit their tastes. I am currently playing pure 3rd ed and having a blast.
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Neil Christiansen
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Add: I prefer the 1st edition LOS.
 
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Gordon Adams
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Whichever Mission I play, I like the players to change sides and have a second game....if there is a draw, we flip a coin and take the role that Luck has given us.

I have found it much more interesting to play SMs and GSs because I think by doing so I gain experience and appreciate the game much more.

Regards.
 
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しんぶん赤旗
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MattDP wrote:


How do they feel about the changes to marine squads?


What do you mean by changes to the marine squads? We have all the expansion so we have used the different weapons before. If you mean the changes to weapon values (e.g. lightning claws and thunder hammer) then speaking for myself I didn't see the point of changing them. They never seem too powerful in first edition (in fact they were a bit of a risk as one bad roll could sink you and you have to enter hand to hand and therefore push your luck).

I like 3rd edition but only as a new set of components, not as a alternative set of rules to 1st edition.
 
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