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Subject: 4 more rules clarifications from designer rss

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Bruce Scott
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Corey Konieczka foolishly answered a question that I asked him earlier. Taking advantage of his generosity in personally replying, I of course asked him four more questions. DdJ already got a ruling on one of these, but he posted that after I had already sent the question. Here are his replies:

Q1) The Peril card, I'll-met Company, reads "The hero must choose to either lose 2 favor or have Sauron draw 2 Corruption cards and choose 1 for the hero to receive" Are we right in assuming that in these cases, if the entire payment of favor cannot be made then the other adverse event MUST occur? That is, a here who has only 0 or 1 favor cannot choose to lose 2 favor, then end up with reduced payment because he doesn't have 2 favor?

A1) "Yes, if the entire amount of favor cannot be paid, the other effect must occur."

Q2) The Mistrusted corruption card says "You may not gain more than 1 favor during each future turn." Does this have any effect on favor gained via trading? That is, does "gain" include favor given during trades (including on other hero's turns?

A2) "Yes, this includes any way in which the player would receive more favor (including trading)".

Q3) Is Sauron allowed to play a Shadow card in the combat finale?

A3) "NO. This is not considered a part of any player's turn, and Sauron may not use Shadow cards."

Q4) What happens if a hero receives the Wretched Corruption card at the start of combat (with the Mouth of Sauron) or during a combat (against an Agent)?

A4) "The combat immediately ends. The Monster/minion is treated as if the combat ended without being defeated. The hero's turn would then end."

Despite the fact that he gave the wrong answer to question number 3,

I very much appreciate his response and wanted to share it.
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Rauli Kettunen
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Skipbidder wrote:
Q2) The Mistrusted corruption card says "You may not gain more than 1 favor during each future turn." Does this have any effect on favor gained via trading? That is, does "gain" include favor given during trades (including on other hero's turns?

A2) "Yes, this includes any way in which the player would receive more favor (including trading)".


Okay, I can buy this.

Quote:
Q3) Is Sauron allowed to play a Shadow card in the combat finale?

A3) "NO. This is not considered a part of any player's turn, and Sauron may not use Shadow cards."

Despite the fact that he gave the wrong answer to question number 3,

I very much appreciate his response and wanted to share it.


Huh? What do you mean wrong answer for #3? Or are you a member of the Shadow cards in the Finale conspiracy ?
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David desJardins
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Dam the Man wrote:
Huh? What do you mean wrong answer for #3?


He means he's an iconoclast and wanted to prove everyone else wrong.
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Bruce Scott
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I might be an iconoclast, but I don't think that this is an example to support it. I honestly thought you ought to be able to play a Shadow card in the final battle as Sauron. Perhaps insufficient sample size, but I think that the final battle skews to the heros and this would have been a counterbalance.

The emoticon absolves me from all, doesn't it?
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Bruce Scott
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Even with the crutch of an emoticon, I was apparently unable to clearly convey the nuance.

I would have been slightly surprised if the answer had been otherwise for question 1. For question 2, a different answer wouldn't have surprised me too much or bothered me at all. For question 3, I was hoping for a different answer because it seemed perfectly consistent that Sauron player be able to use a Shadow Card in the finale. It certainly doesn't bother me so much that I'll be house-ruling it away. It just means that Sauron ought to work a little harder to avoid going to the final battle. No need for the final battle to be balanced (and I haven't played enough times to be sure that it really isn't). For question 4, I had no personal investment in the ruling. It was a question that had come up on here, so I decided to tack it on to the others.

The game is currently in my top 5, and I really do appreciate the designer's response to rules questions. It's a complex enough game that it would be well nigh impossible to write rules that were 100% clear and comprehensive. The next best thing is a quick response to questions.

Surely you have played my most recent game, the Awesome Game of Awesomeness. It got much better reviews than my previous effort, the Sucktastic Game of Suckitude.
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David desJardins
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Skipbidder wrote:
I honestly thought you ought to be able to play a Shadow card in the final battle as Sauron.


Oh. I thought you were talking about what the rule is, not what it should be.

There are five cards Sauron could possibly play:

Betrayed - Lose two cards (more if you have corruption).
Dark Promises (x2) - Mostly irrelevant.
Morgul-Blade - Gain a corruption card, could be irrelevant or huge.
The Black Breath - Gain a corruption card and lose strength/agility.

As far as game balance goes, I'd be fine with allowing Sauron to save these up and play them in the finale. (But what if you draw Wretched?)
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Ian Kelly
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DaviddesJ wrote:
As far as game balance goes, I'd be fine with allowing Sauron to save these up and play them in the finale. (But what if you draw Wretched?)


Then the combat immediately ends, and since the hero did not defeat the Ringwraiths, Sauron wins. whistle
 
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Drake Coker
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Of course Sauron can play Shadow cards during the finale. You don't really expect Sauron to play by the rules, do you? devil
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David desJardins
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Peristarkawan wrote:
Then the combat immediately ends, and since the hero did not defeat the Ringwraiths, Sauron wins. whistle


Well, it doesn't say that on the card. It says that the hero's turn immediately ends. But it's not the hero's turn.
 
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Bruce Scott
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Skipbidder wrote:
I honestly thought you ought to be able to play a Shadow card in the final battle as Sauron.


Oh. I thought you were talking about what the rule is, not what it should be.

There are five cards Sauron could possibly play:

Betrayed - Lose two cards (more if you have corruption).
Dark Promises (x2) - Mostly irrelevant.
Morgul-Blade - Gain a corruption card, could be irrelevant or huge.
The Black Breath - Gain a corruption card and lose strength/agility.

As far as game balance goes, I'd be fine with allowing Sauron to save these up and play them in the finale. (But what if you draw Wretched?)


I meant both what the rule is and what it ought to be. I no longer think that this is what the rule is, because we've been told otherwise. The "ought to be" wasn't in terms of spirit of the law but in terms of perceived balancing of the final combat.

The one time it came up, the Shadow card was Betrayed. I argued that Sauron should be able to play the card, and thought I was doing so based on what was written in the rules. (This was to the detriment of my game position, as I was not Sauron.) Sauron still lost despite being permitted to play Betrayed. I still believe my reading to be consistent with the rules as written. As you well know, it is entirely possible to have a minority opinion that seems consistent (at least to you) with the way the rules are written yet turns out not to be the way the rules were intended. Take, for example, your mistaken minority view on Mistrusted and trading. This was based on a reasonable reading of the rules, but turns out to not be what the designer intended. I doubt you have so much invested in that position that you will be house-ruling it any more than I'll be house-ruling my own mistaken minority opinion.

I plead not guilty to the charges of "want[ing] to prove everyone else wrong", at least in this specific instance. It would have been hard to lord my brilliance over others when I hadn't even posted the opinion in the first place. [I don't know which emoticon to try to use to convey sarcastic hyperbole, but please assume such an emoticon directly follows "brilliance" earlier in this paragraph.]

Your point about Wretched is well-taken. It would cause the need for an additional ruling still. Easier to simply prevent the situation from coming up in the first place.
 
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David desJardins
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Skipbidder wrote:
Take, for example, your mistaken minority view on Mistrusted and trading.


Well, I'm not calling the designer "wrong" when he gives an answer different from mine. I don't think Corey's answer even considered game balance, just how the rules are. So "wrong" is awfully hyperbolic.

As I said, from my point of view I'd have no objection about balance if these cards could be played during the finale, and it wouldn't be any less thematic either. But, most of the time, I think the Sauron player would be better off using these cards in battle during the game, rather than saving them for the finale. Out of the 16 corruption cards, 12 would have no effect during the finale, two have slight effects (Helpless and Weak), one has an ambiguous effect (Wretched), and one has a variable effect depending on the hero's status (Distraught). Causing corruption during the game seems to have considerably more upside for Sauron. Betrayed is probably the one card that's relatively more effective in the endgame---but it's also cheap to play and if drawn early will probably be played early.
 
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Kenny VenOsdel
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Quote:


Q2) The Mistrusted corruption card says "You may not gain more than 1 favor during each future turn." Does this have any effect on favor gained via trading? That is, does "gain" include favor given during trades (including on other hero's turns?

A2) "Yes, this includes any way in which the player would receive more favor (including trading)".


Does one per turn mean for each individual heroes turn or one for the heroes turn as a whole?
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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kvenosdel wrote:
Does one per turn mean for each individual heroes turn or one for the heroes turn as a whole?


I'd say for each individual turn, including Sauron's turn (are there Event cards that give Favor to a chosen Hero?).
 
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David desJardins
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kvenosdel wrote:
Does one per turn mean for each individual heroes turn or one for the heroes turn as a whole?


Not much question about that. There is no "heroes turn as a whole". Each hero gets a separate turn.

Quote:
I'd say for each individual turn, including Sauron's turn (are there Event cards that give Favor to a chosen Hero?).


Yes, there are Event cards that can cause heroes to gain Favor immediately during Sauron's turn.
 
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