Recommend
15 
 Thumb up
 Hide
133 Posts
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [6] | 

Wargames» Forums » General

Subject: Alright is Space Hulk a wargame? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
olivier R
France
flag msg tools
Avatar
Okay there is a bit of a debate in the general gaming forum and some people are arguing that Space Hulk is a wargame.

So I thought why not ask the people who actually play wargames what they think about it and whether they consider it a wargame or not because maybe they are the ones who are the most qualified to answer.

(Yes sorry for bringing this stuff over here, I am just curious what you guys think. If you're fed up with all the talk about Space Hulk just don't click this threa...ooops oh wait too late.)

Poll
Do you consider Space Hulk a wargame?
Yes
No
Not sure
      311 answers
Poll created by pepe le moko
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
olivier R
France
flag msg tools
Avatar
Just click the back button if you don't.
44 
 Thumb up
0.10
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Only in Great Britain have I seen Games Workshop games seriously labelled as "wargames", but there the word has a different "miniature game" meaning that predates consims.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
olivier R
France
flag msg tools
Avatar
Well I consider warhammer 40k and warhammer fantasy battles wargames personally but let's not muddy the water too much here please. Also feel free to argue and explain why you voted yes or no. Promised next week I'll do a thong or panties poll.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Read the rulebook, plan for all contingencies, and…read the rulebook again.
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Space Hulk is war game enough for this site. If Hit the Beach counts, Space Hulk counts.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason
United States
Arnold
Missouri
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've owned a copy of Space Hulk since...what...1991 (yeah, took a couple years to pick it up on a teenagers salary)? Never once considered it a wargame, always thought of it as a Dungeon Skirmish game...
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
The Tak
United States
Chapin
South Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I voted yes *by the definition given by BGG*

I also, however, understand why some desire it to not be listed under the war games list. I would then ask (as I'm certain others have): What is wrong with the war game definition on BGG?


Perhaps 'classic war games' or 'classic-style war games' might be a better list category to keep the chit-and-grid voters happy, but I fully admit to not knowing enough of the history of the sub-genre to say that with anything other than passing.
3 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Obsolete Man
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
From the standpoint of "sozein ta phainomena", I vote "NO" for the following reason: a wargame is about an "historical" conflict, where by "historical" I mean something that a) really happened in history or b) might have happened in history.

Obviously, a game about Stalingrad is a wargame because that was an actual battle. A game about the 3rd World War (or some battle thereof) from the standpoint of "Cold War becomes hot" is a wargame because it is based upon historical powers (NATO and Warsaw Pact) in a "what-if" situation. A game where Parthians fight Graeco-Bactrians in no particular battle is a wargame because again, those are historical powers and the given set up is a battle that might have happened.

The corner cases on this model are wargames that use known anachronistic elements, like a game about Thermopylae where the Persians have rhinophracts (ahem), or a game where Parthians battle medieval Swedes. I think those games flirt with fantasy but are still actually wargames because they're grounded in history... one uses a real battle but inserts fantasy elements, another uses real OOBs but the situation is fantastical.

Space marines, bug aliens, futuristic polities and space installations are science fiction and/or fantasy. They're not historical because there's no particular set of historical facts of which they take account.

"Wargame" isn't a natural type so there will be cases which flirt with the line. Taking Rorke's Drift and replacing Bromhead et al. with Marneus Calgar and the boys still takes into account certain historical realities (the layout of the battlefield, the combat effectiveness of Zulu forces, etc.)... but it would be pointless and odd. Still a wargame? Maybe a pointless and odd one.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Brant
Canada
Stittsville
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I voted yes, even though I actually feel it isn't one.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
olivier R
France
flag msg tools
Avatar
theTak wrote:

I also, however, understand why some desire it to not be listed under the war games list.


Honestly I don't think many wargamers would lose much sleep over it if it was listed as a wargame. People here are a lot less rabid about ranking I have noticed. I just think it is silly.

Just going with my gut feeling here, not so much the definition. If a friend called me and told me to come over next saturday to play a wargame at his place and he had a game of Space Hulk set up on the table, I don't know, it would be a bit odd. But like I said I am curious about what other wargamers think.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
The Tak
United States
Chapin
South Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Requete wrote:
From the standpoint of "sozein ta phainomena", I vote "NO" for the following reason: a wargame is about an "historical" conflict, where by "historical" I mean something that a) really happened in history or b) might have happened in history.

Obviously, a game about Stalingrad is a wargame because that was an actual battle. A game about the 3rd World War (or some battle thereof) from the standpoint of "Cold War becomes hot" is a wargame because it is based upon historical powers (NATO and Warsaw Pact) in a "what-if" situation. A game where Parthians fight Graeco-Bactrians in no particular battle is a wargame because again, those are historical powers and the given set up is a battle that might have happened.

The corner cases on this model are wargames that use known anachronistic elements, like a game about Thermopylae where the Persians have rhinophracts (ahem), or a game where Parthians battle medieval Swedes. I think those games flirt with fantasy but are still actually wargames because they're grounded in history... one uses a real battle but inserts fantasy elements, another uses real OOBs but the situation is fantastical.

Space marines, bug aliens, futuristic polities and space installations are science fiction and/or fantasy. They're not historical because there's no particular set of historical facts of which they take account.

"Wargame" isn't a natural type so there will be cases which flirt with the line. Taking Rorke's Drift and replacing Bromhead et al. with Marneus Calgar and the boys still takes into account certain historical realities (the layout of the battlefield, the combat effectiveness of Zulu forces, etc.)... but it would be pointless and odd. Still a wargame? Maybe a pointless and odd one.



I would argue that you're narrowing the scope of 'wargame' to 'historical wargame'. Obviously hulk would not fit into this definition, but that's not the definition that appears to determine if something goes on the wargame list (as currently stands). What in your definition makes the wargame, outside of historical? Are there any other defining traits? If Space Hulk was actually 'Mogadishu Breach' and was a squad of US marines going through the streets of Mogadishu, but the mechanics otherwise the same, that would be a wargame per your definition, yes?

I'm not trying to be a poop, lets make the site better over all this so at least SOMETHING other than posturing and name-calling gets done
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Nicholson
Canada
Brantford
Ontario
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've got to go with the

"Why does it matter?"

button.


It's a toy. We are playing with toys.

If someone wants to play with it in the context of a serious gruffgruffgruff grognard game, that's great!

If someone wants to play with it as a "Lookie at my alien dolls! I'm going to eat your solder dolls! Rarrrr" game, that's great too!

Allow consenting adults (and kids) to enjoy their toys and dolls in the way they'd like to enjoy them - label-free and with the joy of playing!





35 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ray
United States
Carpentersville
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In the general sense. sure. its a game about war.

In the 'real wargame' or consim sense. again it depends. unlike many consims this is a game system and if a scenario was set up with a tremendous attention to detail (say playing out every character of a book) it could squeak bye. Not how I expect the scenarios to be set up (i expect more situations and mechanics than attempts to give a historical feel of story telling)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex
United States
Walnut Creek
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If SH (or any other game) fits the category, it should be ranked wherever it falls (disregarding any flame war discussions of shilling). Heck my two favorite games don't break the top 25 of either list.

pepe le moko wrote:
If a friend called me and told me to come over next saturday to play a wargame at his place and he had a game of Space Hulk set up on the table, I don't know, it would be a bit odd. But like I said I am curious about what other wargamers think.


This is the only reason why I think it is worth discussion. If someone on BGG says to themselves "I want to start wargaming" and they check out the wargame list. Do those with a more in-depth wargaming experience (no elitism here, just talking about breadth and depth of experience) feel they are getting a "wargame" experience if they pick Wallenstein off of this list? Twilight Struggle? Space Hulk? Combat Commander? ASL? Condottiere? Risk? (Edit: In reading Scott's post above, does it even matter what wargamers feel the "wargame" experience is if the gamer in question thinks they are playing a "wargame"?)

If Risk Express suddenly became the hottest thing on BGG and the wargaming forums were flooded with 100s of forum entries on Risk Express, would the BGG wargaming community feel upset?

I think the BGG definition of wargame fits and does a good job in not being too overly exclusive. I just wonder if there is a way to implement the "wargame" categorization to meet the intent of the initial split.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Delp
United States
Franklin
Tennessee
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Requete wrote:
From the standpoint of "sozein ta phainomena", I vote "NO" for the following reason: a wargame is about an "historical" conflict, where by "historical" I mean something that a) really happened in history or b) might have happened in history.

Obviously, a game about Stalingrad is a wargame because that was an actual battle. A game about the 3rd World War (or some battle thereof) from the standpoint of "Cold War becomes hot" is a wargame because it is based upon historical powers (NATO and Warsaw Pact) in a "what-if" situation. A game where Parthians fight Graeco-Bactrians in no particular battle is a wargame because again, those are historical powers and the given set up is a battle that might have happened.

The corner cases on this model are wargames that use known anachronistic elements, like a game about Thermopylae where the Persians have rhinophracts (ahem), or a game where Parthians battle medieval Swedes. I think those games flirt with fantasy but are still actually wargames because they're grounded in history... one uses a real battle but inserts fantasy elements, another uses real OOBs but the situation is fantastical.

Space marines, bug aliens, futuristic polities and space installations are science fiction and/or fantasy. They're not historical because there's no particular set of historical facts of which they take account.

"Wargame" isn't a natural type so there will be cases which flirt with the line. Taking Rorke's Drift and replacing Bromhead et al. with Marneus Calgar and the boys still takes into account certain historical realities (the layout of the battlefield, the combat effectiveness of Zulu forces, etc.)... but it would be pointless and odd. Still a wargame? Maybe a pointless and odd one.


You know, I agree with you 99%. And yet, even though I don't consider Space Hulk a wargame, I would still consider Star Fleet Battles a wargame. Maybe because it's still hex and counter, and its rules read like the tax code. I don't know...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Delp
United States
Franklin
Tennessee
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pepe le moko wrote:
theTak wrote:

I also, however, understand why some desire it to not be listed under the war games list.


Honestly I don't think many wargamers would lose much sleep over it if it was listed as a wargame. People here are a lot less rabid about ranking I have noticed. I just think it is silly.

Just going with my gut feeling here, not so much the definition. If a friend called me and told me to come over next saturday to play a wargame at his place and he had a game of Space Hulk set up on the table, I don't know, it would be a bit odd. But like I said I am curious about what other wargamers think.


You make an excellent observation. Even though I am having a hard time defining wargame for myself (and I've been playing them for about 25 years), if I was invited to play a wargame and found Space Hulk set up on the table, I would go so far as to feel deceived. I would have to fight to keep the words "Are you kidding me?" from coming out of my mouth.

Don't get me wrong, I'd probably play it anyway, but that's beside the point.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wendell
United States
Yellow Springs
Ohio
flag msg tools
Si non potes reperire Berolini in tabula, ludens essetis non WIF.
badge
Hey, get your stinking cursor off my face! I got nukes, you know.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Is there a BGG definition of wargame? If so I haven't come across it, would love it if somebody could point me to it.

Although I don't consider Space Hulk a wargame, I can understand why some would. It's not the theme - fantasy and SF are legitimate subjects for a wargame IMHO, and I see Swords & Sorcery for example as a wargame (with a separate quasi-RPG included but I digress).

It's not the complexity - Ancients is pretty simple but I consider it a wargame.

I guess for me it's a subjective "does it feel like a wargame" thing. For me, many ameritrash games do NOT feel like wargames.

But your mileage may vary, Space Hulk (third edition) does have more in common with World in Flames than either have with Caylus, and it doesn't make that big a difference in the end...

But yes, I'd feel a bit cheated if somebody promised to play a wargame with me and proposed Space Hulk. Or Axis & Allies.
9 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Delp
United States
Franklin
Tennessee
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Binko wrote:
I don't understand the "who cares" and "why does it matter" people. We have a hobby we enjoy. We play games and we talk about games. It's pretty hard to talk intelligently about much of anything unless there are some commonly accepted definitions and terms.

For Space Hulk to be a wargame you really have to stretch the definition of wargame so thin that it becomes meaningless. I might as well ask if Combat Commander: Europe is a Eurogame. Hey, why not, who cares, what does it matter.


Amen brother.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
oystein eker
Norway
Unspecified
sola
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If my wife does not like it - it is a wargame.

Yes it is a wargame

17 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Delp
United States
Franklin
Tennessee
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Imagine that the other way around. You invite someone over for a game, someone you know plays euros almost exclusively, they walk in the door and you’ve got Stalingrad Pocket set up. The reaction would be priceless. For extra laughs, play it up as though you have no idea where their confusion/surprise/anger is coming from.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Colin Hunter
New Zealand
Auckland
flag msg tools
badge
Stop the admins removing history from the Wargaming forum.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm a jazz musician, we often ask is something jazz and frankly the discussion is rather irrelevant, but, one common criteria for determining if something is Jazz is whether it shows a lineage of development from other jazz works. Now obviously this isn't full proof and is fraught as any definition, but is interesting to consider.

How is spacehulk related to the other wargames? Does it share a common heritage, other than in the most broad sense?

I'm not sure if this is enormously helpful either, but it is worth considering and I think this the problem many of us have (us being actual wargamers). Games like sniper etc.... are similar, but sniper comes from a wargaming tradition, despite SH coming from miniature games slightly, it doesn't have as strong an association. This would mean for example that Twilight Struggle was a wargame as it draws direct relation through CDGs.

I think this is a factor, but it is easy to overstate and frankly crumbles under very detailed analysis.

Ultimately I don't care if it is a wargame, but if it were made one, many other games should be too.
15 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Delp
United States
Franklin
Tennessee
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Oh, I think it is helpful. Thumbs.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Freelance Police
United States
Palo Alto
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Wired_Wolf wrote:
I've owned a copy of Space Hulk since...what...1991 (yeah, took a couple years to pick it up on a teenagers salary)? Never once considered it a wargame, always thought of it as a Dungeon Skirmish game...


Yep.

IMO, There's no hard and fast rule that differs wargames from skirmish games. However, there are characteristics that *tend* to be found in one game, rather than another.

* Skirmish games *usually* differ from Wargames by scale. Wargames have more men (and other lifeforms) per unit, and use chits. Skirmish games are often one man per unit, and use miniatures. Exception: Ambush.

* Skirmish games *often* differ from Wargames by theme. Wargames usually are history-based. Skirmish games are often fantasy or science fiction based. Exception: Avalon Hill's Starship Troopers.

* Skirmish games *often* differ from Wargames by movement. Wargames typically use a hexagonal grid. Skirmish games use square grids or rulers.

* Skirmish games *often* differ from Wargames by combat resolution. Skirmish games use a variety of different combat systems, but almost never a CRT chart. Wargames (or at least older ones) use an odds ratio table, called the Combat Resolution Table or CRT.

Rather than the usual internet flamage, I'd rather have each person who's played wargames and "other" games, list three characteristics they believe *help* distinguish a wargame from a "game that involves combat but isn't a wargame".

Hopefully, I'm not being too optimistic here...
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Lawson
United States
Rutland
Vermont
flag msg tools
Boston Redsox
badge
New England Patriots!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
No!


"Who cares" should have been an option.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gunther Schmidl
Austria
Linz
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
snicholson wrote:

If someone wants to play with it as a "Lookie at my alien dolls! I'm going to eat your solder dolls! Rarrrr" game, that's great too!


It should totally be renamed "Rarrrr! Alien Doll Eaters from THE FUTURE"
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [6] | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.