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Subject: Which Kingdom will you choose in this game? rss

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Kawi Santosa
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Hi BBG players,
Yesterday I played on BSW, and got these kingdom on my game.



I want to know, which kingdom you will play in this condition.
1. Will you buy witch where chapel is available?
2. Will you go for garden deck?
3. Will you go for workshop to get garden and bureaucrat on next?
4. Will you go for laboratory or festival, since it's everyone's favorite?
5. Will you just go for plain chapel deck even though garden is available?

Share your comment and thought.

thank you..
 
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Don D.
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bureaucrat as fast as I can, then chapel with witch and festival early game, lab once curses are out. I buy some gardens mid game and ditch them with chapel.
 
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wodan wodan
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Gardens is the strongest strategy there. Witch and Bureaucrat will slow down a Chapel strategy with ease. Use Workshop to obtain Villages and more Workshops. You then use those to obtain Gardens and Bureaucrats, the latter of which lets you get bonus Silvers as well.
 
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David desJardins
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In a 3-player game, a lot depends on what the other players are doing. If at least one other player joins you in a Gardens strategy, then you'll probably both do well. If you try to follow a Gardens strategy while the other players build efficient decks to buy Provinces (while each taking a few Gardesn away from you, if you try to get too many), the game will run too long and you'll do worse.
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Mike Tomashewski
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I'd temporize w/ your 3 buy and get a silver. Then get bureaucrat on your 4 buy turn.

I'd not play gardens from the get go simply since it will be hard to get it to work super well until you either get lots of + actions and stuff like workshop/bureacrat or saving up enough to get festivals.

If someone else goes garden, be ready to buy them up to stop them.

Honestly, there is a lot to like about the defensive elements of this set. If someone goes to witch, you have chapel. If someone goes Garden, you can too.

Without knowing what happens I would probably go bureaucrat/cellar/festival from the get go.

To your questions:

1) Witch w/ chapel means that you encourage others to chapel, which can be a blessing and a curse. I wouldn't do it in your case since you can't buy her until turn 3 at the most.

2) see above

3) see above, but to elaborate, the workshops will quickly lose value w/o multi action cards. I'd stick w/ silver/bureau

4) Festival is a must own since its the only reliable + buy. Laboratory is nice... but I think Festival is stronger since there are a lot of good one shot actions that it can help you to use like bureau, workshop, witch etc.

5) Not at the start. I'd temporize and wait and see if people are going garden before committing to that.
 
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jonas gardelin
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wow, what a fun set!


i would like to try.

cellar and workshop first cycle

cellar workshop village second one unless u can get a lab, and make it as quick as possible with cellar, just dump everything but workshop

then go for the bcrat, villages and labs, rush up to something like 3 cellars, 3villages, 3workshops, 2 bcrat, buying labs and then festivals if u can then start going crazy on the gardens.

the game should probably end with 3 stacks being depleted pretty quick and u having by far the most gardens


edit: freq of cards is probably a little optimistic depending on what the others players are doing
 
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Kawi Santosa
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Thanks for all replies and comments.
Surprisely all the players were choosing bureaucrat at the first time,
and on next turn, each of us played different style.

But sure, the bureaucrat makes chapel a bit ineffective,
many times I must put my victory card to the top library when I just had chapel in my hand.

At the end, I got 29, fugitive got 28 and Piniu got 19
it was a close call and nice game.

But you are right, bureaucrat is very tempting in this play.

 
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Ted Vessenes
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Given that Bureaucrat is the only 4 cost card beside gardens, you can expect most players will buy them. Bureaucrat is good if you're playing gardens and better if your opponents are. So there's certainly value in doing a Chapel / Silver opening, explicitly because you can remove your estates, making you immune to opposing strategies. It also provides some protection against the Witch, should anyone take it.

I agree that this is a really interesting setup, and more than most other setups, what you buy really does depend on what you think others will buy. The two obvious strategies are Chapel/Silver, Bureaucrat/(Silver or Workshop). I also side with Silver over Workshop in this setup unless you feel like you need to get lucky to win. If someone opened with a 2/5 split, I'd buy workshop over silver, for example, because you're clearly behind in that game situation.

In general though, if it looks like both opponents are going for Gardens, I would play Chapel, and vice versa. If one person went Gardens and the other went Chapel, I would probably go with Chapel and try to get an early Witch to slow down the garden player. But I totally understand someone going gardens with that setup as well, especially given the 3/4 split.
 
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Ben Bateson
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Bureaucrat doesn't surprise me. I think I would try and make a game out of a Cellar-Festival-Gardens deck myself.

As has been pointed out, a Chapel deck will be comfortably ruined by the Witch and Bureaucrat, particularly if more than 2 are playing.
 
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Andrew Hardin
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ousgg wrote:
Bureaucrat doesn't surprise me. I think I would try and make a game out of a Cellar-Festival-Gardens deck myself.

As has been pointed out, a Chapel deck will be comfortably ruined by the Witch and Bureaucrat, particularly if more than 2 are playing.


The interesting thing is that this set also contains the very powerful three card combination of Cellar/Laboratory/Chapel.

This combination is usually very powerful (it is borderline broken) and would win under most conditions. Neat to see a situation where people strongly feel it won't work.

If started out with a 5/2 split I might still go Laborator/Chapel and take my chances.

- Lex
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David desJardins
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tedv wrote:
In general though, if it looks like both opponents are going for Gardens, I would play Chapel, and vice versa.


This seems exactly backwards to me. Why do you want to be the lone contrarian? If they both build Gardens decks, they are going to end the game before your Chapel strategy can thin your deck and then buy enough Provinces. Conversely, if they both thin their decks, you aren't going to be able to end the game quickly by exhausting three decks, and they will overtake you.
 
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Andrew Hardin
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DaviddesJ wrote:
tedv wrote:
In general though, if it looks like both opponents are going for Gardens, I would play Chapel, and vice versa.


This seems exactly backwards to me. Why do you want to be the lone contrarian? If they both build Gardens decks, they are going to end the game before your Chapel strategy can thin your deck and then buy enough Provinces. Conversely, if they both thin their decks, you aren't going to be able to end the game quickly by exhausting three decks, and they will overtake you.


It takes awhile to finish a game with Gardens decks that are worth any VP.

With the Laboratory/Cellar/Chapel you can thin the deck very quickly unless your opponents are going for Witches. If they go for Witches they slow themselves down in gathering Gardens.

It would be a fun race.

- Lex
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Ted Vessenes
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DaviddesJ wrote:
tedv wrote:
In general though, if it looks like both opponents are going for Gardens, I would play Chapel, and vice versa.


This seems exactly backwards to me. Why do you want to be the lone contrarian? If they both build Gardens decks, they are going to end the game before your Chapel strategy can thin your deck and then buy enough Provinces. Conversely, if they both thin their decks, you aren't going to be able to end the game quickly by exhausting three decks, and they will overtake you.


Chapel decks generally can't waste buys on Gardens until much later in the game. If a garden deck buys a garden to go from 24 to 25 cards, then an additional 4% of their draws will be dead. That same garden that takes a chapel deck from 9 to 10 will make 10% of their draws dead. If one chapel deck tries to buy gardens, they will make the other chapel deck win. So neither of them can buy gardens until later, which means you should be able to get almost all the gardens. If your deck has 10+ gardens, they won't be able to win even if they split the provinces 6/6. And that's not counting the estates you'll pick up. Plus it will be easy enough to run out Estates, Gardens, and a third pile using a lot of Workshops. Probably the Workshop pile.

Now if both players are taking gardens, you can expect them to split them maybe 5/5 with you taking 2 towards the end game. The game will end fast enough that 50+ card decks are unlikely (but possible due to the witch), so they will each have 20 points in gardens and probably another 6 to 10 from estates, duchies, or a lucky province. So you have to beat 26 to 30 points. You won't be able to run out the province stack, but you should be able to buy 5 provinces and 2 gardens in that time. That gives you 32 points. If you stumble towards the end and get a duchy instead of one province, you're still at 29 which is probably sufficient to win.

Basically the more people competing over a given type of victory card, the worse that strategy is for all people fighting. My theory is that you should either take whichever of provinces and gardens are uncontested.
 
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Jeff Wolfe
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DaviddesJ wrote:
tedv wrote:
In general though, if it looks like both opponents are going for Gardens, I would play Chapel, and vice versa.


This seems exactly backwards to me. Why do you want to be the lone contrarian? If they both build Gardens decks, they are going to end the game before your Chapel strategy can thin your deck and then buy enough Provinces. Conversely, if they both thin their decks, you aren't going to be able to end the game quickly by exhausting three decks, and they will overtake you.


Chapel vs. Gardens/Gardens
If they end the game early, they won't have time to get 40+ cards in their deck, and you just need Province x3, Gardens x2 to get 22, while they will each have roughly Gardens x5, Estate x3 for 18.

If they let the game last long enough to get to 40+, you will have more time to buy Provinces.

Gardens vs. Chapel/Chapel
If they let you have all 12 Gardens, you will end up with Gardens x12, Estate x3 for 51. They will each have Province x6 for 48, assuming you don't end the game early.

If they poach some of your Gardens, you can usually shift to Duchies late in the game and still overcome them, because they will have slowed themselves down with the Gardens.

Copying the other two players
Doing the same as everyone else is a crap shoot. If you're in first position, you'll win slightly more than 1/3 of the time, and if you're in third position, you'll win slightly less than 1/3 of the time. Not a great winning percentage, that.
 
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David desJardins
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tedv wrote:
If one chapel deck tries to buy gardens, they will make the other chapel deck win. So neither of them can buy gardens until later, which means you should be able to get almost all the gardens.


This is an interesting example of groupthink. Are they willing to buy buy 2 or 3 Gardens each, knowing that if they both do, then one of them will probably win, but if they don't, then you will probably win? I assume that they will but I understand your assumption that they will kill themselves with their own rivalry. It could happen.

Quote:
Now if both players are taking gardens, you can expect them to split them maybe 5/5 with you taking 2 towards the end game. The game will end fast enough that 50+ card decks are unlikely (but possible due to the witch), so they will each have 20 points in gardens and probably another 6 to 10 from estates, duchies, or a lucky province. So you have to beat 26 to 30 points. You won't be able to run out the province stack, but you should be able to buy 5 provinces and 2 gardens in that time. That gives you 32 points. If you stumble towards the end and get a duchy instead of one province, you're still at 29 which is probably sufficient to win.


This is vastly different from what I expect to see. Two players each on a Workshop/Gardens strategy can each get 6 Gardens and 9 Estates (unless you start buying some of each, which will both help them end the game faster and slow down your effort to buy Provinces) and run out the decks when they are between 30 and 35 cards, which takes them less than 15 turns. So the leader will generally have at least 27 points. (There might be a Duchy or two, also.) You have trashed your Estates by then, so you have to get at least 4 Provinces to even have a chance. It's simply hard to be fast enough.

Quote:
Basically the more people competing over a given type of victory card, the worse that strategy is for all people fighting.


I think that's just totally wrong, for Dominion.
 
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David desJardins
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jeffwolfe wrote:
Chapel vs. Gardens/Gardens
If they end the game early, they won't have time to get 40+ cards in their deck, and you just need Province x3, Gardens x2 to get 22, while they will each have roughly Gardens x5, Estate x3 for 18.


Huh? Why aren't they buying Estates (or gaining them with the Workshops when the Gardens run out). That's how the game ends. All of those Estates have to be somewhere, that's another 12 points you're not counting.
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
jeffwolfe wrote:
Chapel vs. Gardens/Gardens
If they end the game early, they won't have time to get 40+ cards in their deck, and you just need Province x3, Gardens x2 to get 22, while they will each have roughly Gardens x5, Estate x3 for 18.


Huh? Why aren't they buying Estates (or gaining them with the Workshops when the Gardens run out). That's how the game ends. All of those Estates have to be somewhere, that's another 12 points you're not counting.


Quite right. So, one more Province, or perhaps two more Duchies are needed.

No doubt you will respond that "that will never happen," but in my experience it does, and the person who adopts the counter-strategy wins more often than not.
 
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jeffwolfe wrote:
No doubt you will respond that "that will never happen," but in my experience it does, and the person who adopts the counter-strategy wins more often than not.


I think it's quite clear that the Chapel strategy can't win if the two Gardens players are consistent and disciplined about running out the game quickly. One of them will win almost every time.

As Ted suggested above, it's certainly possible that one or both of them don't stick to the strategy that would benefit both of them, and then anything can happen. So when you talk about what you actually see in practice, it certainly does depend on the players. I've certainly been in this situation where my "partner" in the Gardens strategy dropped the ball, and so both of us suffered at the expense of the third player.
 
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Ted Vessenes
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That's true, and there's certainly some luck based on who draws what when. In particular, if you get hit by bureaucrats more often than your opponents, you're going to fall behind regardless of whether you have a garden or chapel strategy. With gardens, you are more likely to get hit. With chapel, it hurts a lot more when you do get hit. I guess I'm trying to say this:

A) I don't think there is a dominant strategy with this setup.
B) Even if there is a dominant strategy, you can't conclude what it is with just one game.

For the record, I don't think two players opening with bureaucrats will completely destroy the chapel player. You just need one good trashing for the chapel to be good, and even trashing 3 coppers in the early game is solid. Worst case you can trim your deck down to a few silver and a lab, and then use the lab to draw back your estates so you can trash them to chapel. Similar logic applies to defending against the Witch. When your deck is small, you have a much greater chance of drawing Chapel at the same time as curses.

I will say that my experience has been in situations like this, the person who avoids group think tends to win more often than the alternatives though. That's assuming the strategies are legitimately solid alternatives, of course. Lots of time players doing the underdog strategy are just making poor plays.
 
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David desJardins
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tedv wrote:
A) I don't think there is a dominant strategy with this setup.


Of course, we all agree about that. That was my original point.

Quote:
For the record, I don't think two players opening with bureaucrats will completely destroy the chapel player.


Sure. That can go lots of ways, especially if you're the first player. Maybe you get rid of 2 Estates before they even get to play a Bureaucrat.

I think the worst case for you is both other players opening with Workshop/Workshop. Try playing against that.
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
jeffwolfe wrote:
No doubt you will respond that "that will never happen," but in my experience it does, and the person who adopts the counter-strategy wins more often than not.


I think it's quite clear that the Chapel strategy can't win if the two Gardens players are consistent and disciplined about running out the game quickly. One of them will win almost every time.

As Ted suggested above, it's certainly possible that one or both of them don't stick to the strategy that would benefit both of them, and then anything can happen. So when you talk about what you actually see in practice, it certainly does depend on the players. I've certainly been in this situation where my "partner" in the Gardens strategy dropped the ball, and so both of us suffered at the expense of the third player.


The question is, how can a Gardens player be consistent and disciplined and still gain an advantage over the other Gardens player. You wind up with a prisoner's dilemma scenario, which favors the Chapel player.
 
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Ben Bateson
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That's reading a bit too deeply, surely? The situation is that the Gardens player who buys the game-ending card is at an advantage, not the multi-layered psyche of the Prisoners Dilemma. It's merely a question of arithmetic.

EDIT: by the by, I can't believe this question has produced so much constructive debate and I am the first person to thumb the thread! Share the love, people...
 
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David desJardins
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jeffwolfe wrote:
The question is, how can a Gardens player be consistent and disciplined and still gain an advantage over the other Gardens player. You wind up with a prisoner's dilemma scenario, which favors the Chapel player.


I don't think you do. Once you get going, there's not much you can do to deviate from the basic strategy to help yourself at the expense of the other player. Stretching the game out longer isn't going to help you relative to the other Gardens player, it's just going to help the Chapel player catch up. The Estates are generally the third pile to go, and if you don't buy them, then the other Gardens player who is buying them is just gaining additional points over you.

The Prisoner's Dilemma is based on the predicate that each of two players can gain on the other by defecting. But that's not true here.

It's true that if you decide you aren't going to win anyway, and you only care about winning and not your relative position, then you can start playing randomly. That can upset any strategy.
 
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Kawi Santosa
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Thanks for all your postings and thoughts
all of you are awesome.
nice thinking...
I am digesting each posting ..
some postings seems complicated to me..
laugh
 
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Kawi Santosa
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Case numnber 2

Which Kingdom will you play in this game?







I will tell a short story,
Yesterday I played this game, my opponents are from Japan..
We were biting each other during this tug of war.
First we go for chapel only being countered by militia,
some go for moneylender and festival,
other went for early baron for boosting money
mid game, we aim for noble, continuing biting each other, we compete for minion..
coffeeBoy yelled when someone played noble, noble, noble,
and yelled even more when someone played noble, festival, noble, festival..

sure, this is the strangest game I ever played, almost all victory cards were gone.

wuihhh... in the end coffeeBoy got 55, I got 48 and shoty got 44.



Share your comment and planning, what kingdom will you play in this condition?

 
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