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Subject: So many questions...Thalin and combat rss

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Kenny VenOsdel
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So, Thalin's power is that he does not lose his turn if he fails to defeat a monster/minion right? So if he fails to defeat a minion, but is himself not defeated, he keeps going. Can he explore the area the monster or minion is on? I would think his next choice would be either to leave the area or wait until his next turn for Sauron to ambush him. Is this correct?

Second: I know I read this somewhere in the book but I can't find it. During combat I play a card that says "Cancels opponents next card if it is melee" or something like that. My opponent next round plays a "cannot be canceled" melee card. Does my power, since it was already in play, trump his power rendering his card canceled, or does his card come into play and be protected from cancel? Thanks for the responses and all the thumbs.
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T France
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Interesting second question. According to the RAW, previous round abilities are resolved first, so does that kick in before the cannot be cancelled?

Not sure which way I lean on this one though...
 
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We play that a card that states "cannot be cancelled" cannot be cancelled even though your previous card tries to cancel it. In other words cards with the text "cannot be cancelled" are immune to previous round abilities.

Not sure about the 1st Q, if he didn't defeat his opponent are you sying that he is now exhausted or both exhausted? The resolution step comes next, right? But for Thalin I think he can explore on.
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Troy Zigler
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First: I believe you played that correctly; although, Thalin could explore after the combat ends. Afterwards he may move or proceed to the encounter phase.

Second: This one is a bit tougher but I believe that a card that states cannot be canceled on it, will only be canceled/ignored if the Hero is exhausted. So, in this case the card would not be canceled.
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Ian Kelly
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kvenosdel wrote:
So, Thalin's power is that he does not lose his turn if he fails to defeat a monster/minion right? So if he fails to defeat a minion, but is himself not defeated, he keeps going. Can he explore the area the monster or minion is on? I would think his next choice would be either to leave the area or wait until his next turn for Sauron to ambush him. Is this correct?


There's nothing in the rules to suggest that Thalin would have to skip the Explore part of his Encounter step. It would be rather a turd of an ability if he did have to skip it, since usually the monster/minion will be directly on the space that he's trying to get to.

Quote:
Second: I know I read this somewhere in the book but I can't find it. During combat I play a card that says "Cancels opponents next card if it is melee" or something like that. My opponent next round plays a "cannot be canceled" melee card. Does my power, since it was already in play, trump his power rendering his card canceled, or does his card come into play and be protected from cancel? Thanks for the responses and all the thumbs.


We play that the card is not canceled. If you play strictly by the rules, then all of Sauron's "This card cannot be canceled" cards are worthless, since they would always be resolved after the hero's canceling card. That just seems wrong.
 
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David desJardins
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kvenosdel wrote:
So, Thalin's power is that he does not lose his turn if he fails to defeat a monster/minion right? So if he fails to defeat a minion, but is himself not defeated, he keeps going. Can he explore the area the monster or minion is on? I would think his next choice would be either to leave the area or wait until his next turn for Sauron to ambush him. Is this correct?


If you fight a monster, then it's removed from the board after battle, win or lose. So there's no question of exploring its space again.

If you fight a minion in the Ambush step, and you fail to defeat it, then you don't lose your turn anyway, whether you are Thalin or not. In that case, you can choose to remain in the space during your Travel step, and explore it immediately, but you skip your "Combat or Peril" step so you don't fight the minion again. This is on page 24 of the rules.

If Thalin fights a monster or minion during a Travel step, and fails to defeat it (but is not defeated himself), then he just keeps going with the turn sequence; next he can Explore the space. If there's a minion remaining there (or another monster), he can remain there in which case he might fight it in a future Ambush step, or he could move away.

Quote:
Second: I know I read this somewhere in the book but I can't find it. During combat I play a card that says "Cancels opponents next card if it is melee" or something like that. My opponent next round plays a "cannot be canceled" melee card. Does my power, since it was already in play, trump his power rendering his card canceled, or does his card come into play and be protected from cancel? Thanks for the responses and all the thumbs.


If the card cannot be canceled, then it's not affected by powers that try to cancel it. This seems pretty clear, otherwise "This card cannot be canceled" would be worthless since it would only apply if it hadn't been canceled!
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David desJardins
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Peristarkawan wrote:
There's nothing in the rules to suggest that Thalin would have to skip the Explore part of his Encounter step.


There's no Explore during the Encounter step. Do you mean the Travel step?
 
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Ian Kelly
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DaviddesJ wrote:
There's no Explore during the Encounter step. Do you mean the Travel step?


Yes, I mistyped.
 
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Kenny VenOsdel
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DaviddesJ wrote:

If Thalin fights a monster or minion during a Travel step, and fails to defeat it (but is not defeated himself), then he just keeps going with the turn sequence; next he can Explore the space. If there's a minion remaining there (or another monster), he can remain there in which case he might fight it in a future Ambush step, or he could move away.


I guess this makes Thalin a power house then because Sauron can't use minions to protect his plots very well. The only way you could keep Thalin from just waltzing over to any of them would be multiple minions/monsters surrounding it or playing movement restrict shadow cards against him. Also if you are spending that much to have to protect one plot against one character you won't have too many resources left to guard the others. I mean how often is a minion able to defeat a hero in one combat? (granted if Thalin is wounded already you may have a chance to defeat him).

We decided that if Thalin wanted to explore and there was a minion there he would have to initiate combat a second time and attempt to defeat the minion, but could remain on the space to do so. This made defending a plot possible, bonus for Sauron, and also gave the hero more cards for his turn and a possible minion defeat, bonus for heroes. But really we weren't sure and I would rather play by the rules than my own made up solutions to them.
 
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Kenny VenOsdel
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Double post sorry. After posting my musings I realized that if a hero could not explore if a minion/monster was present it would essentially make it impossible for heroes to remove plots. Sauron could easily stack up enough monsters/minions on his big boy plots that no hero could fight through all of them in order to remove the plot. So i guess I change my mind and convinced myself.
 
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David desJardins
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kvenosdel wrote:
This takes all strategy out of combat


Exaggerate much?
 
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Ian Kelly
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kvenosdel wrote:
This takes all strategy out of combat and no it is not worthless. There are "cancel this turn" and "cancel next turn" cards. If the next turn cards don't take effect on them it makes the "cancel next turn" cards essentially worthless. Usually they have a stipulation and affect either melee or ranged so it forces players to change the type of card they may want to play. It's not very hard to plop down a "cannot be canceled" card on the next turn after knowing whats already out there.


It's also not very hard to just plop down a card of the type that doesn't get canceled. And if they do resort to playing a "cannot be canceled" card, then they've still had to play a different card from the one they wanted to.

Look at it from the other direction. Being able to play a card that cancels the opponent's next card if it's melee, followed up with a card that penalizes the opponent for playing a ranged card is extremely powerful. This is ameliorated by the fact that your opponent might have a counter for this play in hand, making it risky to telegraph your play in such an obvious manner.


Quote:
If Sauron played a card that would cancel it then it would be saved for a future turn, not played and wasted.


I don't see how the rules support this statement at all. Card effects never get saved for future turns.
 
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Kenny VenOsdel
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By saved i meant the player would choose not to play it since it wouldnt be allowed to take effect. And if you notice my previous post I changed my mind. I will delete that post since I no longer deem it relevant.
 
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Kenny VenOsdel
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DaviddesJ wrote:


Exaggerate much?


usually. btw i have always loved your avatar. i get at least a chuckle out of it everytime i see it.
 
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Matt Smith
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Not to throw a monkey wrench into this, but I guess I've done too much structured programming in my past. Look at the sequence of a combat round as quoted from the rulebook:

3. Rounds of Combat: Each combat round consists of the following parts:
a. Choose Cards:
b. Reveal Cards:
c. Calculate Strength:
d. Previous Round Abilities: If the card text of any card played in the previous combat denotes "Next Round," then those abilities are resolved at this time (unless otherwise specified), first by the hero and then by Sauron.
e. Current Round Abilities: All abilities from cards that were played during this round are now resolved, first by the hero and then by Sauron.
f. Deal Damage:

Step 3.d clearly happens before step 3.e. So, if player A has a previous round ability that would cancel player B's current card, it is cancelled. The current round ability of player B's card doesn't matter, because it hasn't been checked yet (remember, we're in step 3.d, not 3.e).

As to this "ruling" making cards with the ability "This card can't be cancelled" useless, there are plenty of cards that say something like "If your opponent played a Melee card, it is cancelled." It seems clear to me the cards that can't be cancelled are meant to counter the cards that have a current round cancelling ability, not the previous round cards.

As to this "ruling" making cards with a "next round" cancelling ability too powerful, these cards are typically costed higher than their current round equivalents, as are the cards that get a big bonus (e.g. Aimed Shot) if the opponent's card is of a particular type. Yes, you can set up a nice combo with a "next round" cancelling card, but it's going to cost you a large chunk of your strength.

I'm not stating a personal preference for one ruling over the other, I just wanted to point out how the combat round rules, if followed sequentially, are very clear how to resolve this situation. If we've received an official ruling from Corey/FFG, I'll gladly play the official rule. Until then, I'll use the combat sequence from the rulebook to resolve card combos like this.

EDIT - Typo.
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Ian Kelly
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mvettemagred wrote:
As to this "ruling" making cards with the ability "This card can't be cancelled" useless, there are plenty of cards that say something like "If your opponent played a Melee card, it is cancelled." It seems clear to me the cards that can't be cancelled are meant to counter the cards that have a current round cancelling ability, not the previous round cards.


The problem is that the combat sequence also states that the hero's card is resolved before Sauron's card. Since Sauron's current round card is always resolved last, there is no way that such a card could ever successfully prevent another card from canceling it.

The fact that Sauron does in fact have cards that attempt to do this suggests that the above is not what the designer intended.
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David desJardins
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mvettemagred wrote:
e. Current Round Abilities: All abilities from cards that were played during this round are now resolved, first by the hero and then by Sauron.


As Ian says, it's clear that "This card cannot be cancelled" is not a 'current round ability' that is triggered when the card executes. It's simply a property of the card that is in effect all the time.

If it were an ability that triggered only when the card is executed, then it could never trigger for Sauron cards (because they would already have been cancelled first). That makes no sense.

Corey has been prompt about answering questions asked on the FFG website. You could submit this one. I don't feel a reason to do so.
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Peristarkawan wrote:
mvettemagred wrote:
As to this "ruling" making cards with the ability "This card can't be cancelled" useless, there are plenty of cards that say something like "If your opponent played a Melee card, it is cancelled." It seems clear to me the cards that can't be cancelled are meant to counter the cards that have a current round cancelling ability, not the previous round cards.


The problem is that the combat sequence also states that the hero's card is resolved before Sauron's card. Since Sauron's current round card is always resolved last, there is no way that such a card could ever successfully prevent another card from canceling it.

The fact that Sauron does in fact have cards that attempt to do this suggests that the above is not what the designer intended.

That makes sense. I guess the real question is if the text "This card cannot be cancelled." is a current round ability, or an attribute of the card, like type, strength cost, etc. It could get really confusing if some of the cards have text that fall under combat round rule 3.e, while other cards have text that don't.

I'll post a question to Corey when I get home tonight.
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Ian Kelly
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The "combat card anatomy" in the rules makes it clear that it's an ability, not a property. I think this is just an area of the rules that is not particularly well thought-out.

The literal reading also would mean that Sauron's current-round cancel cards can cancel the opponent's card but can't prevent its effect from taking place, because the hero's card will already have been resolved at the point it gets canceled. This is not really problematic, but it is strange.

Another card that is problematic is Anticipate. "Next round, your opponent must play his Combat card first, and must place it faceup." If you actually resolve the ability at the proper time in the combat sequence, it will be too late to do anything -- the next round cards will already have been played.
 
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David desJardins
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Peristarkawan wrote:
I think this is just an area of the rules that is not particularly well thought-out.


You mean a problem with the exposition, right? It's not hard to understand what the rules themselves are. I think the authors just chose to write the rules in an intuitive, common-sense manner. I don't think that's so bad for this sort of game.
 
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Ian Kelly
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DaviddesJ wrote:
You mean a problem with the exposition, right? It's not hard to understand what the rules themselves are. I think the authors just chose to write the rules in an intuitive, common-sense manner. I don't think that's so bad for this sort of game.


No, more that the cards seem to be designed to follow common sense, which for the most part they do fairly well. Then at some point in the development process, somebody decided that there needed to be an explicit resolution procedure for figuring out what to do in ambiguous situations. Not a bad idea, except that the rule they came up with fails to produce the correct result in several scenarios. In fact, there seem to be very few cases where the order of resolution rule is actually helpful.
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David desJardins
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Peristarkawan wrote:
In fact, there seem to be very few cases where the order of resolution rule is actually helpful.


I think it's quite common. E.g., I play Evade and you play Charge.
 
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Kenny VenOsdel
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David I don't think its as black and white as you keep suggesting, it just depends on the person since people approach things from different ways.

Truths:
- A card played in a previous round is already in effect.
- Any ability for the next round that that card has is already there, waiting to work its magic.

The part where it is gray is which effect do you resolve first. Current round abilities or previous round abilities or do they all resolve at the same time. As previously posted there is a combat time line of sorts laid out but that doesn't denote the designer's intentions for sure. It actually does suggest that previous round abilities be applied before current round abilities (abilities simply meaning card text). So a "cancel next round melee" card would apply before the melee cards "can't be canceled" ability meaning the melee card has no strength, defense, or abilities and really should not have been played that round. It doesn't make the card worthless, it only makes it a bad card to play at that time.

This order of resolution seems just as "common sense" to me as your order does to you.

Debate on here won't get anywhere though. I would like FFG's official ruling and I will follow that.
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David desJardins
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kvenosdel wrote:
It doesn't make the card worthless, it only makes it a bad card to play at that time.


Your interpretation does make the card worthless. Since hero cards resolve before Sauron cards, if Sauron ever plays a "can't be canceled" card, under your interpretation that text can never have any effect, because the canceling always happens before the effect comes into play.
 
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Kenny VenOsdel
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No. The question in my mind is more about which round they are played in. To put it plainly, do abilities played in previous rounds trump abilities played in the current round. Your example is comparing two cards abilities and how they interact when played in the same round. It's a different question entirely than the original one I posted.
 
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