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Subject: Line of Sight Official Clarification rss

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Rob Corn
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Line of Sight is the latest hot topic here on the Hulk. There are three stages of explanation: The Rules, The FAQ, and The Clarification.

The Rules
Page 12 says:
Quote:
Line of Sight
In order to shoot at something, the Space Marine must be able to see it. A Space Marine can see squares in its forward arc, as shown in the diagram below. A model can see an unlimited distance as long as there is nothing in the way. If there is a model, wall, or door in any square between the Space Marine and his target then he cannot see it.

Corners
A Space Marine standing in a corner can only see round a corner if he is standing next to it.

Rooms
When approaching a room, a Space Marine can always see a target in a direct line, as shown in the diagram below. However, squares in the corner and the sides cannot be seen until the Space Marine is in the doorway.


The FAQ
Quote:
A model in a room can see all of the squares in the room that are in his line of sight, as long as a line drawn from the model to the target does not a) pass through a square that blocks the line of sight, or b) pass between a wall and a square that blocks the line of sight, or c) pass between two squares both of which block the line of sight. An example of b) can be found on page 11 of the rules -- the Genestealer cannot see either of the squares marked ‘X’. Remember that a model can only see squares in a corridor that are directly in front of it. An example of this can be found on page 13 -- the two Genestealers cannot see the Space Marine marked with an ‘X’, though they can see the square in front of him as it is part of the room section.


The Clarification
Additional clarification from Jervis Johnson via email regarding line of sight:

Quote:
You must be able to draw a line from the model to the target. If you can do this without the line going through a blocked square, you can shoot. Note you literally draw a line from any part of the attacking model to any part of the target. Thus all the diagrams with letters and boxes don't really work as LOS can vary on the models being used, how they are positioned in the square, and so on.

In effect, a form of 'true line of sight' is used within rooms.


There have been several posts with diagrams (here and here most notably), and a file with some proposed LOS diagrams here. So which ones are correct?

It looks like in most cases a Space Marine standing in the entryway of a room (this is the situation causing most of the confusion) will probably be able to see Genestealers along the sides even if there are Genestealers in the way. I haven't physically put down the models to see if that's true, but for a rule of thumb I think that will work out. Thoughts?

Edit: Jervis also suggested using a corner-to-corner approach, where LOS is traced from any corner of the Space Marine's square to any corner of the target square, and as long as one line is visible per the rules, the SM has LOS.

(Edit for subject change)
(Edit for updates)
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Adam Brant
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Re: Line of Sight
the additional clarification pretty much clears up any and all questions for me re: LOS.

thanks Rob for getting us the FAQ.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Re: Line of Sight
What?!? Ugh, this is silly. The center-of-square to center-of-square was really simple. Why complicate this with how the model happens to be positioned on the square?

-shnar
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Re: Line of Sight
In fact, this contradicts the "blocking corners" situation (exact diagonals where both corners are occupied)...

Time to revert back to 1st Ed...

-shnar
 
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Adam Brant
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Re: Line of Sight
shnar wrote:
What?!? Ugh, this is silly. The center-of-square to center-of-square was really simple. Why complicate this with how the model happens to be positioned on the square?

-shnar



because then we don't up with really strange on confusing scenarios like you posted in another thread where there was 7 GS's in a row and only GS1, GS3, and GS6, or was it GS7? where visible.. This way, All 7 are visible and can be shot at.

I like it.
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Adam Brant
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Re: Line of Sight
shnar wrote:
In fact, this contradicts the "blocking corners" situation (exact diagonals where both corners are occupied)...

Time to revert back to 1st Ed...

-shnar


no no... option b) from the FAQ rules that scenario out.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Re: Line of Sight
But that's not a complicated nor a weird situation when you understand that if you can't see the model, it doesn't block LOS. Doom/Descent are like this, 1st Ed Space Hulk is like this. Now we get these really ambiguous situations were "My corner can be traced to the arm of the Genestealer that is hanging over the edge of his square onto this square so i can see him!" situations...

-shnar
 
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Adam Brant
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Re: Line of Sight
I don't know. When I read that scenario, it hurt my brain. A non game would have a really hard time with it. It's much easier to just think that they are all able to be shot at in some way or another if they can physically see the targeted model.

edit: typos
 
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The Galaxy is Just Packed!
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Haggis wrote:
The Clarification
Additional clarification from Jervis Johnson via email regarding line of sight:

Quote:
You must be able to draw a line from the model to the target. If you can do this without the line going through a blocked square, you can shoot. Note you literally draw a line from any part of the attacking model to any part of the target. Thus all the diagrams with letters and boxes don't really work as LOS can vary on the models being used, how they are positioned in the square, and so on.

In effect, a form of 'true line of sight' is used within rooms.


OH JESUS H. CHRIST ON A POPSICLE STICK!

All those drugs are finally catching up to him.

I give up. I gotta go eat my underpants.

This ruling is so stupid an unintuitive I want to throw up. 'Scuse me while I go cut all the arms off my Genestealers.
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The problem is it's a wargaming rule applied to a boardgame, which just doesn't fit. Maybe it would have been easier to simply say nothing blocks LOS in the same room you are in...

-shnar
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G K
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Standing at the entryway and seeing the corners was a point of confusion? Seriously?

The real confusion that the forward sight rule causes is where the marine is standing off center from a hallway.

The rulebook indicates that he should be able to see down the entire hallway, but the LOS rule means that he can only see down the first couple tiles in reality.

Any confusion over a marine been able to see a row of genestealers because they're somewhat aligned like with walls in a hallway are from people that you probably don't want to play boardgames with anyway.
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Zaptruder wrote:
Standing at the entryway and seeing the corners was a point of confusion? Seriously?


That's not the confusing part. The confusing part is the next sentence in the rulebook that states even though you can see all the corners, you still need to trace a clear line of sight to the models to really see it...

-shnar
 
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hmm..time to get 3 people in GS costumes, line them up in a row along the wall, grab a paint ball gun and go stand in the doorway and see which ones I can hit.....robot
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Chakroun Karim
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Jervis Johnson wrote:
You must be able to draw a line from the model to the target. If you can do this without the line going through a blocked square, you can shoot. Note you literally draw a line from any part of the attacking model to any part of the target. Thus all the diagrams with letters and boxes don't really work as LOS can vary on the models being used, how they are positioned in the square, and so on.

In effect, a form of 'true line of sight' is used within rooms.


so the choice of which miniature to use could be relevant? like if I choose the one with the big chunk of wall I could hide one of the smaller "flat" minis?
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Yeaup. Make sure you line up the smaller guy coming from the floor behind the larger guys...

*sigh*

-shnar
 
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shnar wrote:
Yeaup. Make sure you line up the smaller guy coming from the floor behind the larger guys...

*sigh*

-shnar


Yeah... no.
 
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where is the clarification ??? cry

can someone make diagrams of LoS (like the PDF file that someone created) ?

 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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What do you mean No? Jervis has said:

Jervis Johnson wrote:
You must be able to draw a line from the model to the target. If you can do this without the line going through a blocked square, you can shoot. Note you literally draw a line from any part of the attacking model to any part of the target. Thus all the diagrams with letters and boxes don't really work as LOS can vary on the models being used, how they are positioned in the square, and so on.

In effect, a form of 'true line of sight' is used within rooms.


ANY part of the models. So if the model's arm is hanging way over the side and is visible, that model can be targeted.

This is a ruling from the tabletop wargame, and in that context makes sense, since there are no "squares" on the table to see if they are in the way. In the context of a boardgame, it makes very little sense and I'm glad it's not in the official FAQ...

-shnar
 
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shnar wrote:
What do you mean No? Jervis has said:

Jervis Johnson wrote:
You must be able to draw a line from the model to the target. If you can do this without the line going through a blocked square, you can shoot. Note you literally draw a line from any part of the attacking model to any part of the target. Thus all the diagrams with letters and boxes don't really work as LOS can vary on the models being used, how they are positioned in the square, and so on.

In effect, a form of 'true line of sight' is used within rooms.


ANY part of the models. So if the model's arm is hanging way over the side and is visible, that model can be targeted.

This is a ruling from the tabletop wargame, and in that context makes sense, since there are no "squares" on the table to see if they are in the way. In the context of a boardgame, it makes very little sense and I'm glad it's not in the official FAQ...

-shnar


Sorry, I meant "no" as in "no, that's not how I'll play it"
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powerwis wrote:
where is the clarification ??? cry

can someone make diagrams of LoS (like the PDF file that someone created) ?



We can't! Read what Jervis wrote:

"Thus all the diagrams with letters and boxes don't really work as LOS can vary on the models being used, how they are positioned in the square, and so on."

Diagrams don't work, since you're eyeballing from one model to another. You're not going from center-square to another center-square anymore

-shnar
 
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carthaginian wrote:
Sorry, I meant "no" as in "no, that's not how I'll play it"


Ah, gotcha. Yes, I concur, I don't think I'll be playing this way either

In fact, for simplicity, I think I'm going to play if you're in the room, you have LOS to everything in your fire-arc if playing 3rd Ed rules. Outside the room, just straight-ahead.

(yet another reason why I'll be switching to 1st Ed a lot).

-shnar
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bryanwinter wrote:

OH JESUS H. CHRIST ON A POPSICLE STICK!

All those drugs are finally catching up to him.

I give up. I gotta go eat my underpants.

This ruling is so stupid an unintuitive I want to throw up. 'Scuse me while I go cut all the arms off my Genestealers.


I wish I could thumb this twice.

This personal e-mail with this clarification should be deleted, and then the recycle bin should be purged, and then the machine should be formatted, and then every machine, router and server where it happened to be passing through should be put in a car-crusher. And THEN everyone who read it should go and have a collective lobotomy.

Tracing a line from the "model" to "model"!? So what, now I'm gonna have to be careful how to place the darn things which are already oversized as is? Should I be careful how I move them, too? How about installing tiny cameras in marine minis' eyes so you can re-check in real time whether the marines really sees something or not?

That's it. I'm using the "corridor" rule, and that's final. I'm also house-ruling every damn issue that pops up in the future right on the spot. With a serene and knowledgeable look on my face, of course.
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bryanwinter wrote:
Haggis wrote:
The Clarification
Additional clarification from Jervis Johnson via email regarding line of sight:

Quote:
You must be able to draw a line from the model to the target. If you can do this without the line going through a blocked square, you can shoot. Note you literally draw a line from any part of the attacking model to any part of the target. Thus all the diagrams with letters and boxes don't really work as LOS can vary on the models being used, how they are positioned in the square, and so on.

In effect, a form of 'true line of sight' is used within rooms.


OH JESUS H. CHRIST ON A POPSICLE STICK!

All those drugs are finally catching up to him.

I give up. I gotta go eat my underpants.

This ruling is so stupid an unintuitive I want to throw up. 'Scuse me while I go cut all the arms off my Genestealers.


I wish I could thumb your post a thousand times.

This has to be the STUPIDEST clarification I EVER HEARD of. Checking the fecking MODELS for line of sight? Is he completely OUT OF HIS MIND? Is he serious for ONE SECOND? I can see that rule for wargames, but…

Line of sight will differ depending on what genestealer model you use? What does he think, that the models "click" onto the squares? Now we need definitions on "a model being in a square" because with that rule, people will start moving the genestealers so that only half of the base is in the square they stand in, so that LOS can't be traced. Yaaaaaay!

Mother of mercy, if this is the standpoint of the designer, then all clarifications for this game are doomed to hell.

From here on, I'll ignore ALL "clarifications" on the line of sight. Baba's suggestions is still the fastest and simplest. I'll run with that one.

For christ's sake.
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oh my god, i didn't understand that it was model dependent now !!
are we the 1st of april ?

what is the corridor rule ?
does someone have a PDF with diagrams explaining the LoS for V1 ?

 
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powerwis wrote:
oh my god, i didn't understand that it was model dependent now !!
are we the 1st of april ?

what is the corridor rule ?
does someone have a PDF with diagrams explaining the LoS for V1 ?



look in the files section for the 1st and 2nd edition of space hulk, the rulebook is there.
 
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