Recommend
3 
 Thumb up
 Hide
49 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Space Hulk (third edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Surviving the flames rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Chris X.
Greece
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm sorry if this has already been answered in another thread.

This came up yesterday: I flamed a 3-square section which had 3 Genestealers on it.
I was adjacent to said section. After I rolled the dice, one GS survived and it happened to be the one adjacent to me. In the GS turn can this GS attack me 6 times although it is standing on the fire token? The rules say that if a model moves to a burning square, you get to roll the die again for damage, but they don't say what happens if the model should take any other action, such as an attack, while standing on fire.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
G K
Australia
flag msg tools
Without official clarification, the rules jerk in me would say only movement would trigger a flame check, where as the intuition in me tells me that each action be it a move or an attack or even a turn represents a unit of time which in turn should represent the model been forced to take another flame check.

Or perhaps rolling a 1 on a D6 means that the model has found a small place of purchase on the tile that isn't going to set him on fire.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Corn
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
How appropriate. You fight like a cow.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The rules say on page 21 that "Surviving pieces within the section can move, but must roll to see if they are destroyed each time they enter a new square in the section with the flamer marker."

It looks like you'd only need to roll if you enter a new square. Close combat would not trigger additional survival rolls.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryce K. Nielsen
United States
Elk Ridge
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Use a second flame, if you have the AP for it...

And if the stealer survives, your flamer was destined to die.

-shnar
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris X.
Greece
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
shnar wrote:
Use a second flame, if you have the AP for it...

And if the stealer survives, your flamer was destined to die.

-shnar



Yea that's what i did in the end. But I was wandering what would happen if I didn't have the CPs..
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Day
United Kingdom
Lee
LONDON
flag msg tools
Oi!
badge
That tickles!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
He would also be able to leave the flaming tile without incurring a damage roll. Only a model moving to a space on fire has to make the roll, not "any movement".
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kyoko Steeple
United States
Columbia
HI
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Haggis wrote:
The rules say on page 21 that "Surviving pieces within the section can move, but must roll to see if they are destroyed each time they enter a new square in the section with the flamer marker."

It looks like you'd only need to roll if you enter a new square. Close combat would not trigger additional survival rolls.


The rules be damned! I fail to see how engaging in brutal melee while you're standing on a gob of white-hot flaming promethium is any safer than hopping onto another gob of white-hot flaming promethium.

You might suggest that the surviving Genestealer happened to be standing in the one spot that wasn't torched by gouts of flame, but I'd argue that the Genestealer would need to stand very still in that spot or risk being sauteed by the fireball engulfing the rest of the room. shake
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Corn
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
How appropriate. You fight like a cow.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
SleightOfHand wrote:
Haggis wrote:
The rules say on page 21 that "Surviving pieces within the section can move, but must roll to see if they are destroyed each time they enter a new square in the section with the flamer marker."

It looks like you'd only need to roll if you enter a new square. Close combat would not trigger additional survival rolls.


The rules be damned! I fail to see how engaging in brutal melee while you're standing on a gob of white-hot flaming promethium is any safer than hopping onto another gob of white-hot flaming promethium.

You might suggest that the surviving Genestealer happened to be standing in the one spot that wasn't torched by gouts of flame, but I'd argue that the Genestealer would need to stand very still in that spot or risk being sauteed by the fireball engulfing the rest of the room. :shake:

Maybe it's trying to put out the flames. Ever been in front of a Genestealer doing a "stop-drop-and-roll"? Pointy parts everywhere.

Edit for typo.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kyoko Steeple
United States
Columbia
HI
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Haggis wrote:
SleightOfHand wrote:
Haggis wrote:
The rules say on page 21 that "Surviving pieces within the section can move, but must roll to see if they are destroyed each time they enter a new square in the section with the flamer marker."

It looks like you'd only need to roll if you enter a new square. Close combat would not trigger additional survival rolls.


The rules be damned! I fail to see how engaging in brutal melee while you're standing on a gob of white-hot flaming promethium is any safer than hopping onto another gob of white-hot flaming promethium.

You might suggest that the surviving Genestealer happened to be standing in the one spot that wasn't torched by gouts of flame, but I'd argue that the Genestealer would need to stand very still in that spot or risk being sauteed by the fireball engulfing the rest of the room. shake

Maybe its trying to put out the flames. Ever been in front of a Genestealer doing a "stop-drop-and-roll"? Pointy parts everywhere.


Ha! Smells like a house rule to me.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris X.
Greece
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
You might suggest that the surviving Genestealer happened to be standing in the one spot that wasn't torched by gouts of flame, but I'd argue that the Genestealer would need to stand very still in that spot or risk being sauteed by the fireball engulfing the rest of the room.


Maybe the Genestealer was walking on the ceiling thus dodging the flames. Then dropped itself right on top of the Marine's head :D
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Branko K.
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
SleightOfHand wrote:

You might suggest that the surviving Genestealer happened to be standing in the one spot that wasn't torched by gouts of flame, but I'd argue that the Genestealer would need to stand very still in that spot or risk being sauteed by the fireball engulfing the rest of the room. shake


The GS surviving the flame could mean anything. Perhaps the flames went over his head and torched the ceiling, leaving him unscathed.

Also, the entire flamer mechanics are very gamey in themselves, so rationalizing them is silly anyway. How does the flame "know" where the edges of the jigsaw piece are??
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Outlaw
United Kingdom
Devizes
Wiltshire
flag msg tools
badge
The Wing Warrior - learn more at www.facebook.com/thelegendriders
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Typical horror movie moment:

Flamer torches the room, then turns to his colleagues. Big grin, thumbs up, and then...

Stealer rises up through the flames and drags him in screaming.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Christiansen
United States
Mount Pleasant
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
OOK! OOK! OOK!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
My answer: no way in heck does the GS get to stay in flames and CC without rolling to fry.

A lot of people around here are trying to interpret rules woridng WAY too literally. On this and lots else.

Wording does not matter. Rules lawyers can take a hike. Your job is to figure out which ruling is best for the GAME.

If the GS doesn't want to fry, it needs to step out of the flamer section to make CC. If it stays it has to suffer another role.

No need for comparing to "reality". Just makes for the best play.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Belgand
United States
San Francisco
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Through the fire and the flames
It's not official, but this sort of thing makes me want to change it to a house rule:

"Surviving pieces within the section can move, but must roll to see if they are destroyed each time they perform any action that resolves with them in the section with the flamer marker."

I'd also, perhaps, change it a bit more and let any player move through the section with the marker, but making the same roll. This might disrupt things too much as using the flamer to block areas is a key strategy, but I kind of like the idea of letting you attempt a suicidal move through the flames.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryce K. Nielsen
United States
Elk Ridge
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Which makes sense. However, when do you roll? Before or after the action taken? I.e. does the stealer get to kill the marine then roll to see if he dies?

-shnar
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Corn
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
How appropriate. You fight like a cow.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
shnar wrote:
Which makes sense. However, when do you roll? Before or after the action taken? I.e. does the stealer get to kill the marine then roll to see if he dies?

-shnar

That's a cool visual -- a burning, melting Genestealer clawing apart a Terminator... I'd say the survival roll would be after the combat if you want to use that rule.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Belgand
United States
San Francisco
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, for continuity you'd have to roll after the action is resolved, but before anything else (i.e. overwatch, CP usage) takes place. Think about it this way if a Genestealer moves into a burning square from a non-burning square (assuming such an action were allowed by the rules) he would roll at the end of his action when he had moved into the new, flaming square. I would expect all actions to resolve in the same manner for consistency.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Packard
United States
Palmdale
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't see the issue with the surviving Genesteeler in a flamed room. Unlike some of the other questions in other threads, the rules for this are very clear. A surviving model has already rolled a 1 to avoid incineration. Perhaps some room debris blocked the initial flame, perhaps he avoided the path, whatever. Not every square centimeter of surface is covered in burning promethium. I picture large patches of flames, but not complete coverage.

To continue walking through the flaming area it makes sense that he should roll again to see if he catches fire at that point. But if he's at the outskirts of the flaming area, and perhaps he's even smoldering a little himself, I see no reason for him to make another roll if he wants to take another action (besides moving through fire).

In game terms the rules as is support this. In theme terms, the Genestealer has merely found a spot of relative safety (whether through cunning or sheer luck). I don't see why there's a need to add rules for this situation.

Naturally, anyone can house rule however they want as long as everyone agrees. I'm just saying that I don't understand the apparently widespread urge to do so in this case.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Belgand
United States
San Francisco
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
WhiteKnight85 wrote:

Naturally, anyone can house rule however they want as long as everyone agrees. I'm just saying that I don't understand the apparently widespread urge to do so in this case.


Because it's just about the only rule that applies to movement and not actions or LOS.

In this case the flamer rules appear to be designed to contain Genestealers: they can't move into the section and if they're already in it and are lucky enough to survive they are very unlikely to make it out alive causing all but the most determined to wait it out. This goes against that containment strategy and gives the GS player six full turns of attacks as if the flames weren't even there. If a GS was one space further into the section he'd have to roll for moving next to the Marine, but then would never have to roll after that for the subsequent attacks.

It's a tricky situation because the rules for this one particular aspect differ from the other rules which concern themselves almost solely with actions. This causes the intent of the designer to be unclear. It's possible that they simply hadn't considered this situation almost as much as it is that they tried to clearly spell out that it is allowed.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom

Carmel
New York
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't see an issue either. We're talking about a situation where: 1) A stealer has survived a flamer attack, which is very unlikely, and 2) The survivor is on the edge of the flamed section, but has it's path blocked by a space marine.

If the path wasn't blocked, the lucky stealer could move out of the flames and continue its turn. I think its too much to force the unlikely survivor to do nothing or continue to roll 1's to survive.

The flamer is already a strong weapon, this house rule would be too much imo.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Spencer Garbanzo
United States
Unspecified
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Keep in mind, it is dangerous to start rationalizing house rules after a situation like this arises- keep on doing it and you'll end up with a game where the marines float through each scenario on your house rules.


The range on the flamer is 12. If you're flaming a stealer within 6, there's a chance that it will survive and come clattering down the hallway to take you out (or, in this case, stand in place and take you out). Instead of changing the game, learn to anticipate and avoid that situation in future plays.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Christiansen
United States
Mount Pleasant
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
OOK! OOK! OOK!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Changing the game? No one is doing that. We are trying to intrpret the rules.

The question is whether the trigger to taking another roll for damamge/death is movement that ends within a flamed square or following ANY action that results in ending the turn in the flamed square.

And it can happen to EITHER SM or GS that are in a flamed section.


Rationalizing house rules after the fact? No. It is about setting precedent for how it will be played in all future games.

The only people I know that are literalists about rules interpretations are non-game designers. Game designers try to figure out (a) what the intention of the designer or rule was, and (b) what is best for game play.

Of course, this case and all others being discussed were clearer in 1st edition. A GS that survives the flame is unaffected by same flame in future rounds. It is how most marines with heavy flamers die.

But in 3rd edition rules (for those who wish to play by them) I think the intention is that if an ACTION ends nto MOVEMENT ends, despite the chosen wording.

Not a house rule, a rules interpretation.

If you flame within 6 spaces, and the GS comes to kill the flamer, it should have to spend the action to step out of the flames.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Christiansen
United States
Mount Pleasant
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
OOK! OOK! OOK!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Not sure surviving a flame attack is very unlikely (although depends on what you mean).

If you flame 4+ stealers, one is likely to survive. If you flame 2 steahers on 4 seperate occasions, veerly likely.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Christiansen
United States
Mount Pleasant
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
OOK! OOK! OOK!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Oh, and the reason that designers are different is they have written rules and realize how difficult (impossible) it is to choose the right work on every occasion.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Shawn Riordan
United States
Phoenix
Arizona
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
What happens if a surviving Genestealer decides to do nothing?

I always assumed survivors would skedaddle out of the burning area. If we use the logic proposed by some, his best bet would be to just stand in the flames until the next turn.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.