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Warhammer: Invasion» Forums » Rules

Subject: "Shrine to Nurgle" support card question rss

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Mateusz Dobrowolski
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I have a question how does this support card "Shrine to Nurgle" exaclty work.

It says on it: "Kingdom. Forced: After an opponent's unit is damaged during combat, corrupt that unit".

Does this damaged opponent's card needs to be in the same(corresponding) zone as this support card or in any of the zones?


 
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Michael Jordal
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Since it does not say in corresponding zone I have been playing that it is everywhere and I imagine that is correct.
 
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Jim Black
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I've been playing it as affecting all zones as well.
 
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It can affect ANY zone. I've spoken to one of the Devs about the rules and if it's not specifically limited somehow, it works just as written.
 
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Mikkel Øberg
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Now we are dealing with this particular card:

It states that units receiving damage during combat are corrupted. What if the unit receives damage from for instance an action arising from a support card during one of the combat steps, will it be corrupted?

I think the card only corrupts when units deal damage, and not if they do so as the result of actions. But I am not sure.
 
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ruvion .
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This question has already come up in the FFG rules forum. I believe several posters have correctly answered this, to the satisfaction of all involved, but let me post mine:



...My reasoning is as follows (much easier to see if you break it down):

Shrine to Nurgle (Chaos support): Kingdom. Forced: After an opponent's unit is damaged during combat, corrupt that unit.




-The TIMING of this card: during combat (ie Battlefield phase).

-the TARGET: there is no mention of the opponent's unit requiring to participate in the said combat. Thus any of your opponent's units that meets the trigger mentioned below fits the description of target for this support card.

-the TRIGGER (forced in this case): when a target unit is damaged (does not mention what type of damage, so it can even be damage from triggered Action effects) during the timing mentioned above.

-the EFFECT: corrupt the target.



In conclusion: this card allows you to target an opponent's non-participating unit...via even damage caused by actions.

relevant section is from this thread:
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?e...

[edit to add thread link and spelling mistakes]
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mateo jurasic
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hmmm, this really seems to be stretching the ability in unintended ways
I wouldnt be surprised if ffg nixed this interpretation, even though some people might agree with it.


to me it seems clear that only units in combat should be affected, though I see how a literal interpretation of the words on the card could be construed differently.
Of course, many words in the english language are vague and have multiple definitions, and can be interpreted in many ways.
 
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Damon Stone
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IMO - We need to stick with the literal interpretation rather than trying to suss out what the developers intent was. We can only ever know one thing and that is what the rules and cards state. Any attempt to figure out what Eric or Nate meant when they were fashioning cards brings a lot of our own assumptions and desires into it.

I believe the proper way to play this and other cards is by the literal interpretation and send it to Nate for clarification. When someone gets an answer come back and chime in so we can all play it the way intended.
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Brad Miller
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How many ways are there to damage units, during combat, outside of the zone being attacked?
 
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mateo jurasic
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careful... literal translations can sometimes lead to some ridiculous situations



other ways to inflict damage during combat would be using tactics and card abilities that damage a target unit, even targetting a unit in another zone that is uninvolved in combat. (assuming a literal translation) .



IT all depends on what you mean by "during combat"
does that imply that the units must be involved in combat, or just any unit as long as the damage is inflicted during the "combat phase"

So, for example following the LITERAL translation, Chaos could send one warrior to attack, wait for the opponent to declare defense, assign damage to that warrior, andthen play "Nurgles Pestilence", applying one damage to every single unit (two if its corrupted) and then CORRUPT EVERY SINGLE OPPOSING UNIT because they were technically all damaged during the combat phase.
That, my friend, is not the game designer's intent.

thematically, the wording in my opinion "implies" that the effected units should be involved in combat. Literally, well, I could see it going both ways. My bet is that designers of the game intended it to mean that the unit had to be damaged as a direct result of combat, during the combat phase, but the way they wrote it down unintentionally added ambiguity.

how they will deal this interpretation now is anyone's guess, since they cant very well rewrite the card, so they might go with the absolute literal translation (to mean just during the combat phase) to make it match the wording. Of course, if someone were to point out just exactly what this interpretation means in light of cards like nurgles pestilence... that might just sway them toward the path of reason.

 
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Damon Stone
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I believe the damage would have to be done before the damage is applied. Once damage is applied and units are removed from play you'd have a hard time claiming combat is still ongoing by the way I read the rules. Combat itself seems to be defined as the period of time where attackers are decleared till when units are damaged and removed from play. The action phase following is a chance to respond to the results of combat but would not count for combat itself.

It is one of the things that a timing flowchart will clear up probably immediately.

Yes, literal interpretations of cards can occasionally end up with weird results... but if there is no rule directly saying otherwise, the only thing we know for sure is what the cards and the rulebook actually say. If they say something unintended then it is best to play it the way the rules and cards say and send the question to Nate. For examnple the Questing Unit when removed from play causes resources on a Quest to reset, does not mention when the Questing Unit is removed from the quest the resources resetting. I asked Nate and he affirmed two things, as written the resources should not be reset (confirming this was the correct interpretation of the rules), and then he followed it up immediately by changing the rules so when the FAQ comes out it will say when a Questing Unit leaves the Quest by any means the resources reset.

By that ruling and clarification, it appears they do intend us to play the rules and cards as written until given a ruling that says otherwise. Until you play in a sanctioned tournament it won't matter at all, play however you prefer, but a TO should be sticking to the strict interpretation of the rules and cards unless they have direction from FFG that counters it, or they publicize in advance that certain house rules will be in effect (in advance so people can build decks appropriate to that interpretation).

As to your strict definition of "in combat" and your statements like "path of reason" I'm going to have to assume you've never served a combat role in the military. Believe me there is friendly fire and collateral damage in areas that were never part of battles. The Fog of War is very real and the literal interpretation is actually an excellent way of representing this. I've been there and done that, I could see this being absolutely what they meant. If it isn't I'll be sa little sad, not from a ruling perspective, I really don't care as long as we all play it the same way and that way is what they want, but because it will force me to think that Eric is not quite as totally awesome a game designer who seems to account for numerous elements of warfare most other games completely ignore.
 
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Yiorgos Golfinopoulos
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ruvion wrote:

during combat (ie Battlefield phase).


That's wrong. "Combat" is NOT the "Battlefield phase".

I 've read threads here and on the FFG forums and people are using the two terms as if there were the same thing. How did you come to that conclusion?

We don't even know how to officially define "combat" since FFG managed to leave its definition outside of the rulebook! But as sure as hell it ain't the "Battlefield phase".

How do I know this? Go check "Master Rune of Valaya" and "Shrine to Nurgle". Do you notice anything?
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Damon Stone
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Quote:
Page 12 - Under Section 4. Battlefield Phase: Attacking an opponent requires engaging in combat,which is broken up into 5 steps:
1. Declare Target of Attack
2. Declare Attackers
3. Declare Defenders
4. Assign Damage
5. Apply Damage


IOW as soon as you declare a target of attack Combat begins. It runs through all 5 steps, and then ends.
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Yiorgos Golfinopoulos
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dormouse wrote:
Quote:
Page 12 - Under Section 4. Battlefield Phase: Attacking an opponent requires engaging in combat,which is broken up into 5 steps:
1. Declare Target of Attack
2. Declare Attackers
3. Declare Defenders
4. Assign Damage
5. Apply Damage


IOW as soon as you declare a target of attack Combat begins. It runs through all 5 steps, and then ends.


Wow, thanks, I love it when I am wrong.

Out of curiosity, how do you explain the different wording in the aforementioned cards?
 
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Damon Stone
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Well look at what else comprises the Battlefield Phase. Master Rune of Valaya is not restricted to after an attack is declared and before damage is applied during the 5 steps of Combat but also works after damage is applied which strictly speaking is after the 5th Step and so falls outside of Combat. In short it is a further reaching effect than Shrine to Nurgle.
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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dormouse wrote:
Well look at what else comprises the Battlefield Phase. Master Rune of Valaya is not restricted to after an attack is declared and before damage is applied during the 5 steps of Combat but also works after damage is applied which strictly speaking is after the 5th Step and so falls outside of Combat. In short it is a further reaching effect than Shrine to Nurgle.


Well, since you brought it up, I am curious.

"Master Rune of Valaya

Spell. Rune.

Action: Cancel all damage assigned during the battlefield phase this turn."

Would you allow this card to remove damage that has been applied (step 5 of combat)? Seems from the wording of the card that it is intended to be used during step 4 (assign damage). Once damage has been applied, you can't un-assign it, can you?
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Damon Stone
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Totally my bad. I misremembered and thought it moved not canceled... that said there is still an action window by which damage can be done outside of Combat but during the Battlefield Phase.
 
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Yiorgos Golfinopoulos
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Quote:
Page 12 - Under Section 4. Battlefield Phase: Attacking an opponent requires engaging in combat,which is broken up into 5 steps:
1. Declare Target of Attack
2. Declare Attackers
3. Declare Defenders
4. Assign Damage
5. Apply Damage


And so, a strange idea crosses my mind...
Could it be that combat is just those five steps and not the action phases between them?
If not, there is no apparent reason for just the last action phase to be considered "outside of combat".

I am in desperate need of a FAQ...
 
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