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Subject: Rumor Mill: BGG Rankings to Change? rss

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The comments come from this thread:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/446826

But a rumor like this deserves its own thread.

derk wrote:
danbc wrote:

It's daunting! There are so many games in the top 250, and I hadn't heard of many of them before I started reading here.

We started with Ticket to Ride, then went to Carcassonne. Neither of these games are in the top 50, yet most people would agree that they are both very good games.

Look for a solution to this issue in December (hopefully). ninja


derk wrote:
Kestril wrote:
And there's nothing like a cryptic comment from one of BGG's founders to make a thread interesting...
I am in charge of marketing after all... ninja


derk wrote:
*sigh*

It's gettin' so a guy can't even attempt humor anymore... And you people wonder why we're so hesitant to communicate, given the level of intrigue even a minor comment triggers.

I don't make promises, as it will depend greatly on the developer queue at the time (who knows if we'll hafta be dealing with another spammer attack then), but yes, I have some plans for the rankings.
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Chris Long
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I hope they do something like this:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/356968

I always thought it was a much better ranking system. And it doesn't allow the cult of the new to seriously affect rankings.
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I would hope that they do a "Hall of Fame" list, as well as keeping the current "pop" list.

The "pop" list could continue to be ranked based on ratings given by BGG users - including sock-puppets and shills, while the "Hall of Fame" list would only include games nominated by BGG users and voted in by a select group of BGG users/mods/game designers/store owners.

"Hall of Fame" games would have to have special justifications/comments - examples could include SDJ information, sales information, length of time in continuous print, number of recorded BGG plays (although this is subject to ballot-stuffing), relevance to game design (things that were innovative when new, but perhaps have been surpassed by others refining their innovations), and general regard in the community (with special mention for highly regarded "gateway" games). Maybe the top designers could each name one of their games to be placed on this list.

Another idea would be for the "Hall of Fame" list to only include games with over x number of votes (x=5,000, 10,000?), while the "Pop" list keys much more to the actual rating scores.

Perhaps once a game is placed on the "Hall of Fame" list, people would be more willing to go back and re-evaluate it based on a comparison with the current crop of games, rather than those it overhsadowed when it was first released. Perhaps when a game enters the "Hall of Fame" all previous ratings could be ignored for the "pop" list.
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Gabe Covert
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I would like to see an aging of ratings... something to phase out the "Cult of the New" ratings over time...

Though, I grant that this would lead to artificial inflation of ratings, since people who don't like a game won't go back to re-rate it poorly after their rating aged...

Nevermind...

ninja
 
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Ha ha! Fame.

I couldn't think of a funny reply to Derk which is why I didn't other then. I kind of knew his comment would cause more discussion.

I'd love it if they did some really broken system as a joke for a day. (Subuteo, Crokinole and Carrom all get linked because, really, they're all the same game. And then sent to number 1 in the rankings. robot )
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And the BGG rankings matter because?


Honestly, rankings are a pair of hairy old bollocks, play what you enjoy.

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CovertDad wrote:
I would like to see an aging of ratings... something to phase out the "Cult of the New" ratings over time...


Wouldn't aging ratings increase the cult of the new by degrading the older ratings as opposed to reducing it?
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tel999 wrote:

And the BGG rankings matter because?


Honestly, rankings are a pair of hairy old bollocks, play what you enjoy.



Rankings are useful if there is any sort of correlation between what you enjoy and what others on this website enjoy.
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FlyingArrow wrote:
tel999 wrote:

And the BGG rankings matter because?


Honestly, rankings are a pair of hairy old bollocks, play what you enjoy.



Rankings are useful if there is any sort of correlation between what you enjoy and what others on this website enjoy.


Perhaps, but I'd bet many new people come here, not knowing any better, and say "Agricola is the #1 game out there, it must be the best!" That's usually a bad way to introduce new people to the hobby (but not always, as illustrated in the original thread that this quote came from)
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Rankings are useful if there is any sort of correlation between what you enjoy and what others on this website enjoy.


Where I think rankings could be useful is if personalized rankings could be generated that basically answered the question "if I enjoy X and hate Y, then it's predicted that I'll also enjoy Z".

I've tried to use the xml api to write something like that, but it requires downloading too much extraneous stuff to get the stats I need plus my knowledge of statistical analysis isn't strong enough. I've essentially created a weighted version of the bayesian math, but it's giving me almost the same answer as the current unweighted rankings.
 
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The ranking matters because statistics are fun!

And the Pairwise Comparison Algorithm is awesome as it 1) allows people to use whatever rating scale they wish, 2) automatically takes away all lonely 10s and 1s and 3) is so mathematically beautiful.

And 4) it easily allows users to adjust what kind of popularity index they wish to have.

And rankings DO matter. Just the other day there was a new user who had just got into boardgames, came here and bought Agricola because it was #1. So the rankings do matter indeed. Make no mistake. Seasoned users know to handle the rankings with a grain of salt, but there are probably a lot of casual browsers who come here and to them it matters more.
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oudknoei wrote:
Where I think rankings could be useful is if personalized rankings could be generated that basically answered the question "if I enjoy X and hate Y, then it's predicted that I'll also enjoy Z".

You don't know about the Personallized recommendations?

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/user/oudknoel/recommendations
 
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I hope it's subset rankings for genre (since both of those are light euros). It could be something like gateways (carc & ttr), euros, at, and war games. Personally, I like simplistic children's games like carc and ttr *not* being in the top 10.
 
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generalpf wrote:
nousernameneeded wrote:
Personally, I like simplistic children's games like carc and ttr *not* being in the top 10.

Could you sound any more snobbish?


Pssst, don't feed the troll
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radynski wrote:
I always thought it was a much better ranking system. And it doesn't allow the cult of the new to seriously affect rankings.

Derk is a smart guy, so he'll know what to do. If not, why, I'm sure there's always a few hungry gators around.
 
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nousernameneeded wrote:
I hope it's subset rankings for genre (since both of those are light euros). It could be something like gateways (carc & ttr), euros, at, and war games. Personally, I like simplistic children's games like carc and ttr *not* being in the top 10.

Let me put it like this: if you lump everything together into One Big List, this is inevitable. The effort required is very modest and therefore most likely to appear first---if an algorithm like PWC is chosen, of course.

That said, it is doable to separate the ratings out into groups like you'd like to see them, but this is a more involving calculation with a lot more adjustment switches, dials and what-not. In other words, less precise in the sense that humans can exert a greater influence on the procedure, steering it into a direction they want it to go. That is also about as far as you want to take the ranking calculations, by the way, simply because the extra effort you need to put in to get more information out of the data is offset by their lack of quality, read 'noone rates every game in the database'.
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cymric wrote:
That said, it is doable to separate the ratings out into groups like you'd like to see them, but this is a more involving calculation with a lot more adjustment switches, dials and what-not.


Not to mention the frenzy of forum posts about GameX being "INSULTED" when described as gateway / euro / ameritrash / etc.
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I don't think humans need to label games, the ratings and games themselves are already capable of this. You get classes and images like seen here and here. These lists are now quite old so many current 'hot' games are not listed here, but the approach remains valid. But as I said, beyond this point the effort to get more out of the data is hindered by the fact that people have strong preferences...
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Zimeon wrote:
You don't know about the Personallized recommendations?

Never worked very well.
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Kevin C wrote:
Another vote for BTL pairwise ranking here!

and another one. It's the only way to go!
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Zimeon wrote:
You don't know about the Personallized recommendations?

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/user/oudknoel/recommendations


Yes, I do. Just at first glance I see 2 flaws:

1. It's only using those things I rated 8 or higher. It's ignoring everything else I've done

2. And therefore it shows me games I've rated quite low and being games it thinks I will enjoy.
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Come on, it's pretty clear what's going to happen, isn't it? Derk said it would be around December but depends on the developer queue, so there's a big project in the works.

In December, BGG will be disbanded and replaced by other geekdo sites. we'll have eurogame.geekdo.com, ameritrash.geekdo.com, gatewaygames.geekdo.com, cardgames.geekdo.com, wargames.geekdo.com, abstracts.geekdo.com - I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

In all seriousness, I think some sort of change to the ranking system would be great. But I also think making the plans public before they are implemented would be a good idea. There is bound to be complaining once the change comes and there may even be a need to adjust the new ranking system. Getting feedback from BGG users earlier would help make the transition a bit smoother.
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I made a suggestion for rankings being done by family that was largely ignored: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/442127

I still feel that a single rank for a family of games would be more useful than the current system of ranking individual games, but not expansions, with different ranks for each edition, and separate rankings for wargames, rpgs, etc.

Plus, it would make the top 100 feel less cluttered, watered down, etc.

 
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joshp wrote:
I made a suggestion for rankings being done by family that was largely ignored: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/442127

There are too many vague families. We have a list ranking wargames, but the highest ranked wargame has been banned from that list. There will be edge cases for people to argue over till doomsday.

I have a rating normalization scheme which I would apply to BGG if I ran BGG, but I have come to the conclusion I would end up implementing pairwise comparisons on top of it, so I will just endorse pairwise. It should be one big list of games, with tags to indicate type (wargame, Eurogame, traingame, reallytraingame, etc). Then you click something and see the list filtered by tags. You can even select multiple tags.
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Barticus88 wrote:
joshp wrote:
I made a suggestion for rankings being done by family that was largely ignored: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/442127

There are too many vague families. We have a list ranking wargames, but the highest ranked wargame has been banned from that list. There will be edge cases for people to argue over till doomsday.

I have a rating normalization scheme which I would apply to BGG if I ran BGG, but I have come to the conclusion I would end up implementing pairwise comparisons on top of it, so I will just endorse pairwise. It should be one big list of games, with tags to indicate type (wargame, Eurogame, traingame, reallytraingame, etc). Then you click something and see the list filtered by tags. You can even select multiple tags.


I fully agree. Nothing is black and white, especially when categorising board games. Tags allow the community to categorise games using any method they choose.

As for rankings. I support the pair-wise ranking system for what it represents and because it can be implemented upon the existing 1 to 10 number system for which so much valuable data has already been
collected.
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