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Subject: "Suicide Mission" -- can the marines win? rss

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Ryan Metzler
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mjtuell wrote:

Is this scenario especially difficult for the marines or do you think we must have been doing something wrong?



The answers to these two questions are:

1. Yes it is difficult for the Marines
2. Yes, if the marines cannot win, you have been doing something wrong.

The entire game is biased in the favor of the genestealers. This is kind of what provides the challenge and suspense in the game, along with the time limit for marines, narrow corridors, etc.

However, it is indeed possible to win the scenario (I've done it myself) while playing as the marines. Re-think your strategy and what is causing the stealers to be able to swarm you, and work from there.
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Brent Lloyd
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I won it for the first time last weekend. I have played it probably 10 times. I ran a marine down the hallway to open the door, and step aside...then the Flamer guy flamed the whole room. Lost the door opener Marine...but won the scenario. It's a tough one for sure.

Good luck!

Peace
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Gordon Adams
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Yipeeeeeeeeee, yes the Marines won

We alternated playing SMs vs GS and then GSs vs SMs . I started as GSs and on the fifth game.....the SMs just made it. Bloody hard, though

I bet if I try it it again, it will take 50 times to win !
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Kurt Rauscher
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It's tougher than it was in previous editions (where the Genestealers had only one reinforcement blip) but it certainly can be won. Even by new players against new players - we had two newbies play it and the Marines won both times (so overall it was a draw).

Everybody has different strategies, but one thing the Marines cannot forget is that they need to complete the goal as quick as they can - if the genestealers have time to pile up then there's bound to be trouble.
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Kris Vezner
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Like another poster said, it is very hard for the Marines but it is winnable. I have won it. If I saw you play I could probably suggest something. But even with optimal strategy, you can still lose pretty easy. I feel that if you win as the Marines, luck will at least not have been cruel to you.

Two best pieces of advice are always be moving and always be shooting. That is, always move forward because if you stand still the genestealers pile up and you lose. Always remember to take your free shot when you move. If you can't shoot a genestealer, surely you can kill some doors. Suffer not a door to live in your sight, for doors are heresy.

Stagger your moves through the first room so that you never waste an AP opening either door in that first room. Every time a Marine crosses the threshold, have him shoot at the door leading off to the closest genestealer entry area. Move the lead Marine forward, then forward diagonally out of line of fire if he doesn't blast the far door leading to the hallway toward the objective room. You can keep moving him forward with CP after another Marine behind him has shot out that door.

The key to this scenario I feel is to first take and hold that side corridor L-bend with the door, so you can overwatch the corridor that all the genestealers are streaming down to protect the objective room. If you can get a Marine there by the end of turn two (possible with decent CP), then you are getting there. I believe in using all CP on one Marine in early turns to push him forward to secure some intermediate objective like an intersection or in this case the L-bend. I recommend the sargeant for this role here, he's your best fighter. You will still probably need to invade the other intersection and shoot out the door to the objective room and clear out the genestealers protecting that door.

Be willing to sacrifice a Marine or two to clear a path or create an opening for your flamer. It may even be legal to flame your own guy, I haven't read the GW FAQ yet but the plain letter of the rules allows it.

Don't start with your flamer in the lead, but at some point he will be in the lead.

Remember that the flamer can block hallways and intersections, I feel that is also key to winning this.

All this is basic stuff, probably you know all this already. Good luck. I suggest that you post a detailed session report, then people can give you better advice.
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Gergely Orsó
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I've won it as the SM probably the 5th time I played them... It's not easy. But I guess SH is more of a puzzle game in the sense that every scenario favors one side or the other, and the "losing" side has to figure out how to beat the game. It's the most entertaining single-player boardgame I have ever played, since (at least in scenario 1) the GS player is basically there to provide AI.
The more I think about it, the more I believe that the scenarios shouldn't be balanced at all when you play them the first time. Since the game has much luck, I think a scenario where the chances of winning for both sides are 50%-50% would be either
- come down to the luck of the dice rolls
- would become one to favor the marines in just a few plays, since they can improve their play, the GS has so basic strategies that with a decent player, there's very little room for improvement.

So that's why the scenarios should favor the GS unless the SM player plays the SM extremely well. So it's a kind of puzzle this way. And I think it's a good thing that we have Suicide Mission as the first mission to demonstrate the "rules" and nature of the game firsthand.
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The Galaxy is Just Packed!
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Yes. My 10-year old wiped the floor with me. Didn't lose a single marine.

With the new ability to clear a jam with one CP, and sustained fire on Overwatch, I'm amazed the Marines lose at all.

The trick is to leave 1 Marine behind in the first room, with his back against the southern wall, to cover the "back door."
 
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Gergely Orsó
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I prefer that marine in the central spot of the first room, so he can backup the others with 1ap turn+shoot actions if needed. Not needed 90% of the time, but still, the chance is worth much more than the extra one shot.
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Gabriel Nilsson
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I've won the last two times I've played as Marines. This is my strategy, and I think it gives me a decent chance to win:
Get the flamer into the nasty corridor on the left. Flame your way to the intersection, while at least two other Marines take the right one. The sergeant can follow the flamer or the other guys depending on the situation. The last Marine guards the rear, until flanking Genestealers have no chance to reach the guys at the front in time, then he turns around and follow the others through the long straight corridor. As soon as the flamer is at the intersection, move out with the guys on the right through their intersection, shoot the door if that's possible or block the Genestealers' path if it isn't. Then move the flamer around the corner. If the shot is clear, take it, otherwise clear the path and go for the door. Cover the flamer's back with the sergeant.

Using the flamer to clear a way is of course a bit risky. You may not kill every Genestealer in your path, and eventually you might run out of ammo. But if you move the flamer first, you can usually use CPs to take a second shot, and if you can't reach your target before you've used six shots, you're probably swamped with Genestealers anyway.
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Robert Kuster
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Thunder wrote:
I won it for the first time last weekend. I have played it probably 10 times. I ran a marine down the hallway to open the door, and step aside...then the Flamer guy flamed the whole room. Lost the door opener Marine...but won the scenario. It's a tough one for sure.

Good luck!

Peace


Ya Brent I was there and you were playing against a newbie as well, saying that you played the marines very well and I think players tend to think that playing the Stealers is fairly easy, not so. Both sides have to use strategies just very different from each other.
 
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Eric Delgado
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You need to be dropping flame templates on almost every turn of the game other than the first turn simply for area denial. Push hard when you get a lot of CPs, play conservatively if you don't.

In fact, I'm running into quite the opposite problem with the group I'm playing Space Hulk with, and that is: Can the genestealer player win suicide mission if the marine player employs his heavy flamer effectively?
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Alex Martinez
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Not having any experience with previous Space Hulk editions and rules, I have to say that Suicide Mission usually is a very close scenario for me. I've played it four times. Twice the marines won. Twice the genestealers.

The marines have to be a little reckless. And they have to watch their positioning, since their general clumsiness in the tight corridors is their biggest weakness. Using the flamer to hold off genestealers is essential, and every time, the victory for the marines has come down to positioning the advance team properly so that a marine with a bolter can blast the door to pieces, move aside, and let the flamer shoot into the objective.

Once, when the marines lost, they were just suffering some extreme bad luck on their rolls. And the second time they lost was because the marine player was a bit too cautious, so by the time he was lined up, the genestealers were on top of the marines. The marines only needed one more turn to win, but they didn't get it.
 
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Kris Vezner
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mjtuell wrote:
kvezner wrote:
The key to this scenario I feel is to first take and hold that side corridor L-bend with the door, so you can overwatch the corridor that all the genestealers are streaming down to protect the objective room. If you can get a Marine there by the end of turn two (possible with decent CP), then you are getting there. I believe in using all CP on one Marine in early turns to push him forward to secure some intermediate objective like an intersection or in this case the L-bend.


This is something we hadn't tried -- running a single marine far out in advance from the start. Interesting.


Pushing one Marine far ahead can be useful in a lot of missions. You can really get some penetration before the genestealers are on you with any numbers. You have to be aware of the potential for your point man to become trapped and surrounded before he's served his purpose, but the suicide mission map is too small for that. In suicide mission, you can push either the sargeant or the flamer.

mjtuell wrote:
kvezner wrote:
You will still probably need to invade the other intersection and shoot out the door to the objective room and clear out the genestealers protecting that door.


Another issue we couldn't quite conquer. You give up a lot of overwatch shots advancing down that corridor and it's really easy for Gene Stealers to pile up around that four-way intersection. Then after all that there is probably still a Gene Stealer or two blocking sight on the door to the objective.


Yes, a good genestealer will flood that corridor to the objective room. And a devious genestealer will hide a genestealer in the objective room itself, just around the corner from the closed door, as a last line of defense.

But imagine that you can get a flame template on that four-way intersection, blocking genestealer reinforcements there. The next turn you move marines in, shoot up the hallway to the objective room and then drop another flame template on the intersection. No genestealers will get in there to replace what you killed. If your hallway is clear now, you are ready next turn to push around the corner with your flamer and go for the win. Note that the Marines clearing out that hallway may not come back, in this mission you have to be willing to send Marines into suicide situations to make a temporary path like that. It really is a suicide mission.

I don't have a perfect answer for you, that other intersection is just hard.
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Tas Stacey
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Place your Sarge up front, followed by the flamer, with the three bolter termies behind. Use all your CP first two turns to send your Sarge up the L corridor as fast as possible. Use the flamer to block the lower corridor, and one of the bolters to guard the bottom corridor.

Move your sarge forward into the intersection, followed by the flamer. Use your last two bolters to cover the lower corridor with OW.

The tricky part can be clearing the intersection just outside the objective room. Generally SGT Lorenzo will have to die for the Emperor. If he does, just use your flamer and slowly march forward, keeping the intersection flamed at all times. The only way to stop him will be running up behind, but your two bolters have like 6 squares of OW to cover, so it shouldn't be a problem.

I ran this game three times today, won both times as the marines, and won as the stealers when my opponent tried something different.
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soeren kepler
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1 important question - how many blips does the GS player place in his first turn on Suicide (2 or 4?).

GS strategy:

I can recommend placing a 1 blip in objective room hidden to the side and a 1 (or 2?) blip in the intersection leading into the objecive room.
As a stealer I´d generally stall, build my numbers and wait for the opportune moment.
 
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Club Squirrel
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A lot comes down to the luck of Overwatch and Command Points.

In my first couple of games I won as Genestealers then I won as Marines.

In that first game I watched my firends tactics. He had amazing success with his overwatch, he went through the entire stack of Genestealers. but he was too slow, and eventually he was overwhelmed. On my go I just basically went for it and charged down the corridor. On the final turn I needed 4 Command Points or I'd lose my Flamer, I got the 4 and won. Luck is a big element.
 
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Alex Martinez
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soerenkepler wrote:
1 important question - how many blips does the GS player place in his first turn on Suicide (2 or 4?).


He places 2 during setup, before the first Marine turn, then gets 2 more during his reinforcement phase.

So, he has 4 blips in play during his first turn, but he does not place all 4 at once. 2 are placed during setup, and 2 are placed at the start of his turn.

Important distinction!
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Kris Vezner
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bryanwinter wrote:
soerenkepler wrote:
1 important question - how many blips does the GS player place in his first turn on Suicide (2 or 4?).


He places 2 during setup, before the first Marine turn, then gets 2 more during his reinforcement phase.

So, he has 4 blips in play during his first turn, but he does not place all 4 at once. 2 are placed during setup, and 2 are placed at the start of his turn.

Important distinction!


Exactly.
 
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A few notes...

I thought about going out with the Flamer blasting, but it only gets 6 ammo IIRC and the scenario doesn't say anything about a reload.

The other issue with the flamer is the LOS issue becuase it basically allows the GS to line up behind it for the following turn without the chance of getting shot at from a Marine in overwatch.

The other issue is that if a GS happens to break through, your mission is basically over.

I set up and try to keep the following order:

Sergeant Power Sword w/ Storm Bolter
Heavy Flamer + Power Fist
3 vanilla marines

The last marine out stays and guards the 1st room/hallway.

The Sergeant pushes 1 space past the t-junction in the middle corridor to provide overwatch. His +2 on close combat, combined with guard seems pretty formidable.

Rushing the flamer up to the top hallway then lets him shoot his full 12 range and stop the flow of GS through the top. Once he breaks off down the L-shaped hallway to the door he gets all the AP.

The other two marines move 1 behind the Sergeant and 1 behind the Flamer.

The GS strategy has tended to be to be:

Initial 2 blips in bottom spawn area.
1st turn 2 blips in top right side spawn.
1st turn move = 2 blips to door, revealed, and then running up the corridor. 2 blips on the far right rush up the top hallway with the goal being sitting just outside the door of the objective room.

From there it's pretty much anything goes, but facing at a minimum 2 blips near the objective room is a pretty serious late game threat. Even with good rolling it requires flamer ammo to make it through!
 
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Ingo Ahrens
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medlinke wrote:

Sergeant Power Sword w/ Storm Bolter

The Sergeant pushes 1 space past the t-junction in the middle corridor to provide overwatch. His +2 on close combat, combined with guard seems pretty formidable.


Sergeant w/ Power Sword and Bolter has only 1D6+1, not +2...
He doesn't get +1 for the sword and another +1 for being a Sergeant
 
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Hmmm... played the game last night for the first time, and won with the Marines, though only the Flamer survived, narrowly.

It was luck as well, since Brother Deino rocked it all - only 6s, with every single shot!cool

Living up to being a sharpshooter I guess....


Next round it was me playing the Genestealers, and this time I won as well... so it seemed quite balanced.


Depends on luck and strategy, but it's fun anyway!
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Erik Hultgren
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I find the mission very balanced, probobly the most balanced one in the book. But it does punish bad tactics by the marine player pretty harshly So its may be a bit bad as introduction mission but on the other hand so does it teach the basic need for speed.
 
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Znail wrote:
I find the mission very balanced, probobly the most balanced one in the book. But it does punish bad tactics by the marine player pretty harshly So its may be a bit bad as introduction mission but on the other hand so does it teach the basic need for speed.


Yes, I did make some mistakes, but I learned a lot from them, so this really is a nice introduction the the game, I think.
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David Thornton
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CthIngo wrote:
medlinke wrote:

Sergeant Power Sword w/ Storm Bolter

The Sergeant pushes 1 space past the t-junction in the middle corridor to provide overwatch. His +2 on close combat, combined with guard seems pretty formidable.


Sergeant w/ Power Sword and Bolter has only 1D6+1, not +2...
He doesn't get +1 for the sword and another +1 for being a Sergeant


However, the Sergeant (+1) with the Thunder Hammer (+1) does get a combined +2, so maybe that is where he got mixed up...
 
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