Recommend
4 
 Thumb up
 Hide
30 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Dominion» Forums » Variants

Subject: What do you think about this variant (as some of us think it should be official) rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Guillaume Chaput
France
Veneux les sablons
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
Hi,

I'm talking about the variant which says that, when you play with 2 players, you only use 6 cards of each kingdom cards, instead of 10, and 8 cards for 3 players.
This allow the game to end on the 3 empty stacks trigger even when you are not playing at 4 players.

Some think it should be official, as other stuffs do scale between 2 and 4 players (number of victory point per stack for instance 8 -> 12. (and about that, why not use only 10 for 3 players?)

This variant seems very interesting as it should stop the "proivinces only" type of game that you see most (95% when garden is not in play) of the time with 2 players. With this, you should be able to work on strategies that include emptying 3 stacks so you end the game before your opponent finish his engine and start buying provinces. This is totally possible with 4 players, so why not with 2?

I tried it myself a bit, and it seems to work well, but I would like to have the opinion from more experienced players.

Thank you!
Guillaume
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Grzegorz Kobiela
Germany
Hanover
Lower Saxony
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Editor at Lookout Games
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Capping the kingdom cards at 6 or 8 assumes ALL players are buying ALL the kingdom cards evenly - but they don't! The victory point cards, however, will be bought evenly by the players (of course, depending on the strategy one might get way more than others, but I'm talking about the expectation value). Thus, victory cards are capped for 2 players. I don't know, why they aren't with 3, and, honestly, why they should be at all.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Lundström
Sweden
Täby
flag msg tools
Now who are these five?
badge
Come, come, all children who love fairy tales.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think the idea rocks, out of the sheer reason that it's more consistent.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Guillaume Chaput
France
Veneux les sablons
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
Ponton wrote:
Capping the kingdom cards at 6 or 8 assumes ALL players are buying ALL the kingdom cards evenly - but they don't! The victory point cards, however, will be bought evenly by the players (of course, depending on the strategy one might get way more than others, but I'm talking about the expectation value). Thus, victory cards are capped for 2 players. I don't know, why they aren't with 3, and, honestly, why they should be at all.


Hmmm, I'm not sure I get your point, I'm just saying that without this variant, 95% of the 2 players games finish on a province battle.
With this, a good percentage of the gamles should finish on the 3 empty stacks trigger allowing some different kind of game.

But as I was saying, I tested it only briefly and I wanted to know if some experienced players ever used it and what they think about it
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Loftus
United States
Henrietta
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think it would shorten the game too much. Just my opinion.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dicky P
United Kingdom
West
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mikeloftus wrote:
I think it would shorten the game too much. Just my opinion.


I agree with Mike (above) that this would shorten the game too much.

With the proposed variant there is still going to be a race to get the most VPs, just now its even faster.

Okay I agree that the majority of times games finish with the exhaustion of most the VP piles, but is that a problem? This has been a life saver in the past where I have initially messed up on short term strategy but have been able to turn this round in the long term.

Ummm perhaps the point is more "would not this variant really cut down strategy to playing fast combinations". If this is the result I think this is a backward step.

Just my view.





4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rick Teverbaugh
United States
Anderson
Indiana (IN)
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I think the goal is admirable. With 3 or 4 players the game much more often will end when a third pile is empty. I never had that happen in a 2-player game.

The one thing I wish had been done would have been for Provinces to be worth 5VP instead of 6. That would have made the Duchy a bit better for the price and not made the rush for buying up Provinces such an end-all strategy. But I still the love the game as it is.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jonathan Morton
Sweden
Vällingby
Stockholm
flag msg tools
Avatar
- The game already has a relatively high setup time, I really doubt there's enough benefit to be gained from it to justify even more setup

- When you mix Intrigue in the 3-piles ending comes up much more often
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dicky P
United Kingdom
West
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jonny5 wrote:
-
- When you mix Intrigue in the 3-piles ending comes up much more often


Yes, we have observed that too.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Guillaume Chaput
France
Veneux les sablons
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
Well, may be 6 isn't the right number, may be it should be 7, the point really is to allow some "rushing" strategies, were buying duchies become much more important. Because our game, with and without intrigue all the time finish with 5 vs 3 provinces.
It makes sence, but I can see where you come from when you say that it would make the game too short... I think that it would make the 2 players game more similar to 3 or 4 players game. Unfortunately, I don't have experience with 4 players games :S
Do you think the 4 players game is too short?

And yes, I agree that this is a bit bad for the set up time...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Stellmach
United States
Arlington
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Not an issue I can get worked up about. Certainly not enough to complicate the setup rules.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ted Vessenes
United States
Somerville
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't think this would hurt the game too much, but it doesn't help it either. Rules that don't make a game better shouldn't be rules.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
B C Z
United States
Reston
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't see a need for it. The 3-pile ending happens frequently enough with all numbers of players. It is entirely dependant upon the card mix.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan Goodrich
United States
New York
New York
flag msg tools
Why can't more games have a handicapping mechanism?
badge
Becoming immortal!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
byronczimmer wrote:
I don't see a need for it. The 3-pile ending happens frequently enough with all numbers of players. It is entirely dependant upon the card mix.


I'd agree with this. We've had two player games end with 3 decks being exhausted (usually it's Duchies, Gardens, and one other Kingdom card) - it happens less frequently, but it still happens.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Wolfe
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
Zendo fan, Columbus Blue Jackets fan, Dominion Fan.
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm with those who say it's not worth the trouble. Of course, I play mostly with four or more, occasionally with three, and rarely with two. But I have noticed that the more expansion/promo cards you include, the less of a "problem" three Provinces is.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
wodan wodan
msg tools
Shouldn't you be decreasing the pile size, not the number of piles? Reducing the total piles will result in the strategic complexity dropping substantially.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sight Reader
United States
Colorado
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
wodan46 wrote:
Shouldn't you be decreasing the pile size, not the number of piles?

That's what I would have figured too. Of course, going the other way, if you want to ADD players, you couldn't increase the pile size beyond 11, so you'd be forced to add more piles instead. Thus, it only works as a technique for reducing scale, not increasing it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
wodan wodan
msg tools
Another variant would be to have players choose which piles to eliminate.

2 Players: Eliminate 4 out of 10
3 Players: Eliminate 3 out of 11
4 Players: Eliminate 4 out of 14

Doing so will result in elimination of cards perceived as obnoxious, and cards perceived as weak.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Metzger
United States
Knoxville
Tennessee
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
6 is TOO low. I already utilize 3-pile exhaustion in 2-player games as a good way to finish.

Maybe 8, but not less.

EDIT: That said, you can do whatever you really want, that's the beauty of the game - I think at some point my buddy and I will be playing a 26 kingdom card game for 2 players.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Guillaume Chaput
France
Veneux les sablons
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
wodan46 wrote:
Shouldn't you be decreasing the pile size, not the number of piles? Reducing the total piles will result in the strategic complexity dropping substantially.


This is what I meant
Having still 10 kind of kingdoms but only 6 of each
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Lundström
Sweden
Täby
flag msg tools
Now who are these five?
badge
Come, come, all children who love fairy tales.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
10 cards with 4 players = 2.5 cards per player
8 cards with 3 players = 2.67 cards per player
6 cards with 2 players = 3 cards per player

Seems pretty decent to me.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pierre Philippe Goyer
Canada
Verdun Montreal
Quebec
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Looking for a Publisher for a Grand Strategic all fronts WW2 card game
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Zimeon wrote:
10 cards with 4 players = 2.5 cards per player
8 cards with 3 players = 2.67 cards per player
6 cards with 2 players = 3 cards per player



Our group did use those numbers very soon after we have acquired the game last November. We have played over 100 X 2 player games and the game was not too short, had more variety in game ending; 30 % of the games did end with 3 empty stacks and 35% with Intrigue.

We have never look back.

Owll
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Short
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
chaps357 wrote:
Some think it should be official, as other stuffs do scale between 2 and 4 players (number of victory point per stack for instance 8 -> 12. (and about that, why not use only 10 for 3 players?)
While shorter piles of action cards may be just fine, using only 10 of each victory card for 3 players would significantly unbalance the game. The reason they use 8 and 12 is that those numbers are divisible by the number of players. If each player is buying Victory cards at the exact same rate, then they will run out when the last player buys one and everyone will have the same score. If you change it to 10 victory cards, then there is an extra VP card not divisible between the players. Most likely, the first player will have the opportunity to buy it and end the game. There's already enough first player advantage, this could push it over the top.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rick Teverbaugh
United States
Anderson
Indiana (IN)
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Of course that's assuming that the first player who plays will actually take the first card in said pile.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ted Vessenes
United States
Somerville
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Honest question. Why does it MATTER what triggers the end of game condition? I just don't see the problem with provinces ending the game 80% of the time. I don't see Race for the Galaxy players complaining about the split between tableau and victory chip endings, or how Attika can end either by connecting shrines or by playing all your tiles.

This doesn't seem like a problem worth fixing because it doesn't seem like a problem.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.