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Subject: A simple and un-ambiguous line of sight rule variant that still makes the game cramped rss

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Simon Lundström
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Disclaimer: This is not in line with the rules nor the FAQ. This is my explanation of why I can't use the LOS rules as they are stated in the rulebook, as they will only cause confusion. This is my suggestion of a simple, consistent rule that still gets the game as cramped as it should be.

The line of sight rules on Space Hulk seem to be fairly consistent when you read the rule book, but if you stretch them, they start groaning.

The "Center-to-center" LOS rule that almost all other grid-based combat games like this use works, it's what I have been playing with for ages. In Space Hulk, however, it's obvious that it's not originally intented to be used – if you stand 2 spaces into a corridor, you can't see ANYthing except straight in front of you, regardless of how long the room in front of you are.

This is very much stated in the original rules:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXX| X* | | X* |XXX
|----|----|----|----|----|XXX
| X | X | X* | | X* |XXX
|----|----|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXX| X | | X |XXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| SM |XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXX


Here, it's clear that center-to-center isn't valid. By center-to-center rules, the SM should be able to see the X* marked squares, yet it's obvious that it's intended that he shouldn't be able to. And as I've played, I like this. This game should be cramped, and center-to-center will disable the cramped-ness.

The basic idea seems rather to be that if the squares diagonally in front of you are occupied, you can't see anything but straight forward – the LOS doesn't widen at all.

The rules don't use that definition of course – instead they mention whether you are "in a corridor" or "in a room" – meaning if you're standing on a tile marked "corridor" or a tile labeled "room". They mean that once in a room, your LOS arc widens, and the FAQ starts coming with explanations about line drawing and whatnot – while in a room.

But I find that using different rules depending on what label the tile your model is standing on, only complicates matters and causes confusion in mid-play, which won't enhance gameplay at all.

I like the corridor rule, but to be frank, I GIVE IT UP. Center-to-center is the only thing what will work. The reason is the offset corridor.

Picture this:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXXXX
|----|----|----|----|XXXXXXXXXX
| | | | |XXXXXXXXXX
|----|----|----|----|----|----|
XXXXXXXXXX| | | | |
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|----|
XXXXXXXXXX| SM |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I don't think anyone here would think that the SM ONLY has LOS straight in front of him just because this tile is labeled "corridor", right? Most would probably see it like this:


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXXXX
|----|----|----|----|----|XXXXXXXXXX
| X | X | X | | |XXXXXXXXXX
|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| | | X | X |
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|----|
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| SM |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| X |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


But what about this?

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXXXX
|----|----|----|----|----|XXXXXXXXXX
| | | | | |XXXXXXXXXX
|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| SM | | | |
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|----|
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

You NEED a center-to-center rule here. Nothing else makes sense. This is what a center to center would look like:


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| X |XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| X |XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXXXX
|----|----|----|----|----|XXXXXXXXXX
| X | X | | | |XXXXXXXXXX
|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| SM | X | X | X |
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|----|
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| X |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| X |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


Changing to center-to-center will change the original game quite a lot, as this (this is in the rulebook):

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXX| X | | X |XXX
|----|----|----|----|----|XXX
| X | X | X | | X |XXX
|----|----|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXX| X | | X |XXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| SM |XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXX

will change to this:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXX| | | |XXX
|----|----|----|----|----|XXX
| X | X | | | |XXX
|----|----|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXX| X | | X |XXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| SM |XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXX


which widens the arc for the space marines, improving their LOS and therefore their lethality, probably imbalancing the game quite a lot. I think there was a REASON that the designers didn't want the marines to be able to see a room like this. This is the flaw with the center-to-center.

However, used in combination with that "a blocking object is a blocking object, regardless of whether it is a wall, a genestealer, a marine or whatever, and also regardless of whether it's in LOS or not" will still make the game cramped enough, as it will turn into this:


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXX| X | | X |XXX
|----|----|----|----|----|XXX
| X | X | X | | X |XXX
|----|----|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXX| GS | | GS |XXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| SM |XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXX


The marine can't "see" the genestealers – he can't get a clear shot at neither of them – but they're still there and blocks his sight of the squares behind, just as if they were walls. The result is that, while all rooms are easier to "see" than in the original rules, it's also pretty easy for the GS player to block them without being shot. And for the GS to be able to block without being seen is GOOD for this game!

This rule, using center-to-center but regarding genestealers and marine as "walls" when it comes to blocking LOS, we get a nice, cramped feeling. Add to that the if the LOS line tangents the corners of two blocked squares, that also blocks LOS (that is in the rules):


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXX| X* | X | * |XXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXX| X | GS | |XXX
|----|----|----|----|----|XXX
| X | X | GS | | |XXX
|----|----|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXX| X | SM | X |XXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| X |XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| X |XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXX

In this case, the SM can't see the X* marked one, as the center-to-center line will pass right between the two genestealers. However, he CAN see the * marked square, as the line to that one only tangents one blocked square.

The variant:
* If you can draw a line from the center of one square to the center of another, and that line doesn't pass through a wall, or a square with a model, and the line also doesn't touch the corners of TWO blocked squares, you have a clear line of sight between these squares.

This is the rule that I find is the simplest and most versatile (not depending on how the tile you stand in is labeled) rule that still causes the game to be (almost) as cramped as it's intended to be. I don't claim this to be what you should use, but it will sure as hell be the one I use.

Edit: typos and clarifications.
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Branko K.
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I see what you're getting at, but "GS blocks LOS even though is not seen" feels VERY awkward.

I think I'm sticking with the corridor rule, albeit with an addendum: "When in doubt, use the string method". Doubt mostly being offset corridors (has anyone ever even had this issue in the game?).

Seriously, all this talk about LOS and in all games only *once* I've had a problematic issue, and that one was all but solved with the original rules (the corridor creating a "straight" line of sight").
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Simon Lundström
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baba44713 wrote:
I see what you're getting at, but "GS blocks LOS even though is not seen" feels VERY awkward.

I felt so at first, but I don't think it's that bad, actually. This feels as awkward:


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXX| gs | | |XXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXX| gs | | |XXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXX| GS | | |XXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXX| gs | | |XXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXX| GS | | |XXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXX| SM |XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXX

GS = Genesteler in LOS
gs = Genestealer out of LOS

The closest and the third is in line of sight, but not the second, fourth or fifth. It's a bit like "what"?

But as you say, it's rare that it's really an issue of course, but I can see it being an issue in cases of having the Broodlord in play. Then perhaps the space marines want to fire on something that's not the closest.

And the most important part is that you make the LOS rules clear before you start, as they're so important.
 
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Rob Corn
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What about just treating the "offset cross" tile as a room?
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Simon Lundström
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Haggis wrote:
What about just treating the "offset cross" tile as a room?


As I said, I wanted (for myself and for explanation purposes) a rule that doesn't relate to what the tile you're standing on is called. But sure, if it WAS defined as a room, you mean it would look like this?


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| X |XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXXXX
|----|----|----|----|XXXXXXXXXX
| X | X* | | |XXXXXXXXXX
|----|----|----|----|----|----|
XXXXXXXXXX| | | X* | X |
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|----|
XXXXXXXXXX| SM |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX| X |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


The Xs can't be seen because they're "not part of the room tile", and the X*s can't be seen because the center-to-center rule (that is applied in room tiles only) says there's a wall in between?

Which would result in this:


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| X |XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| X |XXXXXXXXXX
|----|----|----|----|XXXXXXXXXX
| X | X | | X |XXXXXXXXXX
|----|----|----|----|----|----|
XXXXXXXXXX| | X | X | X |
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|----|
XXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX| SM |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

(Space marine can only see straight as he's standing on a corridor tile)

Is that what you mean?

Sure, it would work… I just think it's weird to have different rules depending on what the tile is called. It works with the current tiles (if you re-label the offset junction as a room) but it won't work generally. And that… grinds a bit in my mind. I want rules like this to work generally, on no matter what kind of layout.
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Zimeon wrote:
It works with the current tiles (if you re-label the offset junction as a room) but it won't work generally. And that… grinds a bit in my mind. I want rules like this to work generally, on no matter what kind of layout.


Well.. I would reason that if I wanted a rulesystem that works "generally", I would then simply use the string method which works 99% of the time. If SH uses a system which doesn't work "generally", but is 100% compatible with the tilesystem it uses, then I guess I'm completely ok with it.

Also, I'm completely ok with the marine shooting at the Broodlord if it happens to be standing in a LOS-disputable position, especially since this seems to be one of the very few occasions where the LOS issue could conceivably alter the game. Broodlord should be a massive sunavabitch anyways, so if there's chance he may be in sight, well, he then IS in sight, no prob.
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baba44713 wrote:
If SH uses a system which doesn't work "generally", but is 100% compatible with the tilesystem it uses, then I guess I'm completely ok with it.


Yeah, I agree with you partly. I just have this tendency to stretch things so that there will be no things like this discussion during the game. But I guess that "corridor rule" + "center-to-center in rooms only" works fine, as long as you re-label the offset junction.

I do have a little problem with this, however:


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXXXX
XXXXX| X | | X |XXXXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXXXX
XXXXX| X | | X |XXXXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXXXX
XXXXX| X | | X |XXXXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXXXX
XXXXX| X | | X |XXXXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXXXX
XXXXX| X | | X |XXXXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX| SM |XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX


The marine SHOULD by all means be able to see in the back of the room… really.
 
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And this is EXACTLY the one single issue we had.

The solution was: "the rules state that you cannot see the back of the room". However, since this was the first time this came up, and my Genestealers were clearly in the lead, I let the SM player to take down the GS who was trying to hide in the "upper" side squares.

But from the gameplay point of view, SM should be aware of the rule and NOT leave the marine one square behind. Especially since - in this particular example - the Genestealers cannot get close enough to attack, so giving SM some freebie "back of the room" shots seems rather exploity. As I said in another thread, genestealers have already gotten a bit pussified with the 3rd ed, let them have some leverage at least..
 
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Argh - these conversations are driving me nuts. The OP is perfectly correct. It's the "piece of string" method. It boils down to this:

Step One: Take a piece of string from the center of the shooter square to the center of the target square.

Step Two: If that piece of string goes through any square that has a model or wall or whatever on it, or perfectly intersects two such squares on a diagonal, LOS is blocked.

Step Three: There's no Step Three.

Period. Done. End of Story. Works with the chorus line of Stealers along the wall. Works with the funky intersection. Works with the 5x5 tile.

I dig 3rd ed rules changes, but I've tossed the LOS rules out the window. I'm done with them. I'm going to stick with the tried and true piece of string method that has worked for the "tactical board games on a grid" genre for over 20 years.

Screw 3rd ed LOS. Just, screw it! Really, it's easy. If you want to make it more "realistic," then convert the 4th ed DnD system - it actually works pretty well as an "all-encompassing" system. But for Space Hulk, that's just too much. Space Hulk is an elegant game. Let's just keep it elegant.

Me, I got me some Stealers to frag.

Edit: typos
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bryanwinter wrote:
Argh - these conversations are driving me nuts. The OP is perfectly correct. It's the "piece of string" method. It boils down to this:

Step One: Take a piece of string from the center of the shooter square to the center of the target square.

Step Two: If that piece of string goes through any square that has a model or wall or whatever on it, or perfectly intersects two such squares on a diagonal, LOS is blocked.

Step Three: There's no Step Three.

Period. Done. End of Story. Works with the chorus line of Stealers along the wall. Works with the funky intersection. Works with the 5x5 tile.


Unfortunately, this means that in THIS situation:


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXXXX
XXXXX| bl | | gs |XXXXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXXXX
XXXXX| gs | | gs |XXXXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXXXX
XXXXX| gs | | gs |XXXXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXXXX
XXXXX| gs | | gs |XXXXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXXXX
XXXXX| GS | | GS |XXXXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX| SM |XXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX


marine only sees the uppercased Genestealers. And I think MANY players will have problems with that. Especially if that's a Broodlord down there in the back of the room.

Btw, while I DO agree with the OP, the bit where the GS player can "block" the back of the room by placing a Genestealer on a square NOT in Marine's LOS.. well, I can tell you right away that the new players will be confused as hell. And I'm not sure I'm personally comfortable with this tactics, too. I know why someone would opt for this variant, I love consistency in games, but this just doesn't sit with me right.

So I kinda prefer the rulebook method to this, warts'n'all. But to each his own. Nothing to get worked about. Why read threads at all if they just turn your blood pressure up?


Edit: I like pressing Edit.
 
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baba44713 wrote:
Unfortunately, this means that in THIS situation:

(snip)

marine only sees the uppercased Genestealers. And I think MANY players will have problems with that. Especially if that's a Broodlord down there in the back of the room.


Yep, it does. So? Deal with it.

You are the Pride of the Emperor. You know no fear.

March your ass into the room and get to a spot where you can shoot the Broodlord. You want an omelet? Break a freaking egg.

One: That room does not exist (but it could).
Two: That situation would rarely exist (but it could).
Three: If the room and the situation do arise, man up and cleanse in the name of the Emperor!
Four: Players have been playing Space Hulk like this for 20 years and never had a problem with it.

Sheesh! Kids these days with their fear of losing a Marine and their hypothetical situations! Get off my lawn!

This is Space Hulk, dammit! There is no room for weakness!

(To clarify: my tone is in jest)

I also like to Edit.
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To be honest, I am actually ok with that room. And the unshootable broodlord.

The second thing I mentioned is what truly ugs me. How can something I do not see suddenly block my LOS at something I did see a moment ago? And how do you explain this to a person after you already went to significant lengths to talk him/her into playing a game with little plastic soldiers?
 
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Zimeon wrote:
Haggis wrote:
What about just treating the "offset cross" tile as a room?


As I said, I wanted (for myself and for explanation purposes) a rule that doesn't relate to what the tile you're standing on is called. But sure, if it WAS defined as a room, you mean it would look like this?


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| X |XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXXXX
|----|----|----|----|XXXXXXXXXX
| X | X* | | |XXXXXXXXXX
|----|----|----|----|----|----|
XXXXXXXXXX| | | X* | X |
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|----|
XXXXXXXXXX| SM |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX| X |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


The Xs can't be seen because they're "not part of the room tile", and the X*s can't be seen because the center-to-center rule (that is applied in room tiles only) says there's a wall in between?

Which would result in this:


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| X |XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| X |XXXXXXXXXX
|----|----|----|----|XXXXXXXXXX
| X | X | | X |XXXXXXXXXX
|----|----|----|----|----|----|
XXXXXXXXXX| | X | X | X |
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|----|
XXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX| SM |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

(Space marine can only see straight as he's standing on a corridor tile)

Is that what you mean?

Sure, it would work… I just think it's weird to have different rules depending on what the tile is called. It works with the current tiles (if you re-label the offset junction as a room) but it won't work generally. And that… grinds a bit in my mind. I want rules like this to work generally, on no matter what kind of layout.


These examples are exactly how I thought I would interpret LOS when I read your opening post.
 
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baba44713 wrote:
To be honest, I am actually ok with that room. And the unshootable broodlord.

The second thing I mentioned is what truly ugs me. How can something I do not see suddenly block my LOS at something I did see a moment ago? And how do you explain this to a person after you already went to significant lengths to talk him/her into playing a game with little plastic soldiers?


Simple, it's not "invisible." You still SEE it, but the waving around of the other 18 arms in front of you doesn't allow you to get an accurate shot at the thing behind them.

1st ed had two sight-related things. First you had LOS, with was 180 degrees in front of you, but that had nothing to do with what you could shoot. The second thing was the Fire Arc, with was exactly like the current LOS. So, even though you could SEE 180 degrees around you (including sideways) you could only fire at things in your Fire Arc (which is where the blocking came in). 3rd ed smashed those two concepts into a single LOS, with glorious results.

So, think of it is terms of LOS and Fire Arc. You can SEE everything, but you can only FIRE at certain things, because other things get in the way.

Really, don't overthink it. It's a simple game. Like Chess. Easy to learn, difficult to master.
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bryanwinter wrote:
Really, don't overthink it. It's a simple game. Like Chess. Easy to learn, difficult to master.


I like how we start from the same premise and then come to the diametrically opposite conclusion.

I want to keep it simple. Hence - corridors constrict your vision, rooms don't. Simple. Models that I do not see suddenly blinding my vision... not simple. If those 18 arms keep me from firing, I'm down, but if you start argumenting that those 18 arms keep me from firing but at the same time I CANNOT SEE THEM AT ALL, that's the exact moment my head detonates.

And to be exactly sure we are talking about the same thing, I'll grudgingly redraw some diagrams.





XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXX| GS1| | |XXX SM: I'm happy because I will now
|----|----|----|----|----|XXX shoot that ugly GS1 up there
| GS2| | | | |XXX as soon as he moves his ugly
|----|----|----|----|----|XXX butt!
XXXXXXXXXX| | | |XXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| SM |XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXX



XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXX| GS1| | |XXX
|----|----|----|----|----|XXX
| | | | | |XXX GS2:No you will not you ugly
|----|----|----|----|----|XXX skull-fetishist! Even though
XXXXXXXXXX| GS2| | |XXX you cannot see me at all, I have
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|XXX now twarted your evil plan!
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXX SM: Noooooo!
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| SM |XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXX



XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXX| me | | |XXX
|----|----|----|----|----|XXX
| friend | |game| |XXX friend: Your game is stupid and
|----|----|----|----|----|XXX I am now leaving. Screw you.
XXXXXXXXXX| | | |XXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|XXX me: Noooooo!
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXX



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Simon Lundström
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baba44713 wrote:
Unfortunately, this means that in THIS situation:


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXXXX
XXXXX| bl | | gs |XXXXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXXXX
XXXXX| gs | | gs |XXXXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXXXX
XXXXX| gs | | gs |XXXXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXXXX
XXXXX| gs | | gs |XXXXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXXXX
XXXXX| GS | | GS |XXXXX
XXXXX|----|----|----|XXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX| SM |XXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXXXX


I think this is perfectly understandable. The first GS is blocking them all, and is the only one that the marine can get a clear shot at.

baba44713 wrote:
Models that I do not see suddenly blinding my vision... not simple. If those 18 arms keep me from firing, I'm down, but if you start argumenting that those 18 arms keep me from firing but at the same time I CANNOT SEE THEM AT ALL, that's the exact moment my head detonates.

As Winters said, you can SEE them, but you can't get a clear shot. Different things. But yeah, I agree with you, it's weird. However, other weirder things have happened in this game, so I'm not that worried. I can't give you a good example now, but I recall at least two times when me and Erik laughed over some really weird LOS situation. And as you prescribe, that stuff that are not in LOS can't block LOS, will get the situation I mentioned above, that you can shoot the first and the third GS in the queue, but not the second, fourth or fifth. And that's pretty weird too.

My main reason to stick to this (stuff can block LOS although they're not in LOS), while being a bit weird, is that 1) it's consistent (not rules that differ depending on the name of the tile you're standing on) while 2) it makes the corridors and rooms really cramped, as the original rules do.
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baba44713 wrote:
And to be exactly sure we are talking about the same thing, I'll grudgingly redraw some diagrams.


Good ones! For pure verisimilitude, your point is very clear. But, verisimilitude and Space hulk have never been good friends.

As long as the rule set you use is clear, concise, and understood by both players, the game will play the same. One way will work out in the GS favor one time, and in the SM favor the next. It'll all wash.

But I think we can agree that these one-shot what-if's are not prevalent enough to have an overwhelming affect on the game, and certainly do not "break" the game.

If we ever play face to face, I'll happily use your LOS ruleset. And you can use mine at my house. We'll still have fun.
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Eric Buhr
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You could also house-rule that intervening models do not block LOS to the Broodlord, as that's really the only situation I can think of where you wouldn't want to shoot the big ugly alien slavering all over your armour first.

Themewise, it could be because the Broodlord is so much bigger than the Genestealers, he towers over them and thus presents a target over the heads of the oncoming Genestealers.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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All my friends are very used to center-to-center ruling, so it's pretty simple to just carry that forward in this game (especially considering that's how 1st Ed plays).

Solves all sorts of "issues" and makes the most sense.

-shnar
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shnar wrote:
All my friends are very used to center-to-center ruling, so it's pretty simple to just carry that forward in this game (especially considering that's how 1st Ed plays).

Solves all sorts of "issues" and makes the most sense.

-shnar


Yep. The solution is so simple I don't understand the confusion/drama.
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Neil Christiansen
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Center to center plus something not in LOS cannot block LOS.

Done.
 
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chris1nd wrote:
Center to center plus something not in LOS cannot block LOS.
Done.


This will unfortunately widen the line of sight too much in favour of the marines, so I wouldn't suggest to play with that.
 
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Not really. In reality, this situation rarely comes up if you're not playing on larger boards (like in Deathwing or Descent). On these smaller 3x3 rooms, it's so rare that I think I've seen it happen once.

But honestly, I wouldn't play it any other way, since it makes perfect sense once you think about it...

-shnar
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shnar wrote:
Not really. In reality, this situation rarely comes up if you're not playing on larger boards (like in Deathwing or Descent). On these smaller 3x3 rooms, it's so rare that I think I've seen it happen once.


When we played, this came up quite many times:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXX| X | | X |XXX
|----|----|----|----|----|XXX
| X | X | X | | X |XXX
|----|----|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXX| X | | X |XXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| SM |XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXX

And the difference between that and this:


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXX| | | |XXX
|----|----|----|----|----|XXX
| X | X | * | | |XXX
|----|----|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXX| X | | X |XXX
XXXXXXXXXX|----|----|----|XXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| |XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| SM |XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|----|XXXXXXXX

is pretty big. In many missions, the genestealers rely on being able to swarm a room pretty quickly. If you are playing that "stuff out of LOS can't block LOS" that means that blips can't enter this room from the east, as the * marked square is in LOS of the marine, so a blip won't be able to enter.

But sure… perhaps it's not as common as I think. It seems to be a rather large difference to me, though.
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Oh, sorry, I thought you were referring to the invisible wall chain of genestealers, where things outside your LOS are blocking your LOS.

That case, yes, happens all the time. As a marine advances near a room, he can see more of the room with each step. Stealers hug the entrence-way and side corriders.

Especially with the LOS limited to the fire arc, I don't understand why you'd want to handicap the marines even further? 1st ed rules...

-shnar
 
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