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Subject: Hogging the "3" blips.. an idiotic and fraudelent strategy rss

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Branko K.
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Well.. my friend used an interesting GS strategy yesterday, one that hasn't occured to me before.

Basically, the jist of it was - convert the 3-blips immediately, and leave the others unconverted (and out of the way) as much as you can.

If you do this right, at certain point of the game your blip discard pile will consist solely (or mostly) of "3" blips. Since the rules state that after blips are exhausted you recycle only the blips on the discard pile, this effectively means that for the 2nd wave you get a nice big pile of "fat" blips!

Since I've only saw this being used in one game, I'm not sure whether it's a valid strategy (albeit evil and gamey) or just an interesting thing to try. I guess a good marine player would simply exploit the fact that GS player is more concerned with "blip juggling" then using up all his resources, but in longer missions it sure seems great to know you're getting a completely deterministic slew of reinforcements...

 
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Slev Sleddeddan
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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy
I'd say that the blips haven't all been used-up, there are still some on the board and he doesn't get to recycle until they're gone.

That's my understanding of the rules. YMMV.
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The Galaxy is Just Packed!
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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy
Slev wrote:
I'd say that the blips haven't all been used-up, there are still some on the board and he doesn't get to recycle until they're gone.

That's my understanding of the rules. YMMV.


Nope - if you have no blips you draw during your reinforcement phase, you "shuffle the discards and create a new draw pile."
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Gergely Orsó
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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy
I guess this is one of those theories that looks good on paper and feels like gain, but in reality it's not much of an advantage.
Take into account, that if you want to ensure a 100% 3blip reenforcement pile, you'll have to hold onto all of your 1-s and 2-s. I'm not sure how many 1s are there in the blip pile, but let's say there are 10. I know there are 4 2-s, so that's sorted. That's like saying I won't be using any of the one blips I draw, effectively cutting my reenforcement options (not numbers) in half, since I'll only be effectively placing one blip as reenforcement for a good portion of the first half of the game. You suffer a loss of (based on 10 1 blips) 16 GS figure you could be using. That's a lot. You trade this for a greater number of guaranteed Genestealers in the second half of the game, but since you would draw 3-as as well from the second pile anyway, I don't think that your net gain is that much. Add the fact that you lose a lot of tactical options in the all important first half of the game, and the marine player can go and actively ruin your strategy, I'd see very little incentive to try this.
I personally believe that one GS in the first turn can be worth more than 3 in the last turn, so I see no big win by trading my early 1 (or 2) GS for a guaranteed 3 on the last few turns, but that's just me.

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Slev Sleddeddan
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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy
bryanwinter wrote:
Slev wrote:
I'd say that the blips haven't all been used-up, there are still some on the board and he doesn't get to recycle until they're gone.

That's my understanding of the rules. YMMV.


Nope - if you have no blips you draw during your reinforcement phase, you "shuffle the discards and create a new draw pile."


I sit corrected then.

The easier and more devious play then would be to put your 3's in as a "first wave" of blips, while leaving your 1's and 2's to the side a lot. Then, at an opportune moment, convert all your threes knowing that NEXT turn you'll be out of Blips & have to reshuffle all those threes back...
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Branko K.
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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy
Well I've noticed that in a lot of missions it pretty much pays off to lurk and pile-up your reinforcements, especially if the marines are slow and spend most of their time in overwatch. In that case it's pretty easy to leave the 1-blips unconverted without handicapping yourself too much.. you just position your 3-blips in forward positions and keep the 1-blips in the background. And besides, noone says you need a 100% pure 3-blip pile, it's enough simply to tip the ratios in your favor to gain a significant advantage.

Edit: ninja'd by Slev. But yes, that's the jist of it.



 
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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy

    It's very likely the Marine player will be pleased to see you cloistering your early blips. Given the choice, he has no intention of being in the hulk long enough for those threes to come out multiple times.

             Sag.


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David Jackman
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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy
Sagrilarus wrote:

    It's very likely the Marine player will be pleased to see you cloistering your early blips. Given the choice, he has no intention of being in the hulk long enough for those threes to come out multiple times.

             Sag.




Yep. Just like a good musician know music lies in the spaces between notes, a good SM player knows when NOT to overwatch.

 
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Neil Christiansen
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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy
I used to automatically convert the 6's in the 1st edition for this very reason.

Sure, I would use the 1's but always last and only when I had to.

Increasing the high value blips in the pool is a grand idea, even if not up to 100%.
 
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Jon Grey
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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy
How many of each blip are there in the game anyway?
 
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Eric Delgado
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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy
SPARTAN VI wrote:
How many of each blip are there in the game anyway?


9 1 blips
4 2 blips
9 3 blips
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Branko K.
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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy
SPARTAN VI wrote:
How many of each blip are there in the game anyway?




9 1s, 9 3s, 4 2s.



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Simon Lundström
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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy
SPARTAN VI wrote:
How many of each blip are there in the game anyway?


Pretty many. When we played it was like: "I'm gonna –bleep– your –bleep– with my –bleep– assault cannon, now eat this –bleep– you –bleep–"

Lots of bleeps, I mean blips. All over the place.
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Ryan Morgan
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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy
I consistently urge the people in my club and regular game night to play every game with honor and within the spirit of the rules.

 
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Ryan Morgan
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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy
I would not play with you sir.
 
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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy

    That didn't take long.

             Sag.


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Tom

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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy
big__rhino wrote:
I consistently urge the people in my club and regular game night to play every game with honor and within the spirit of the rules.



So the the strat the OP is talking about is dishonorable and against the rules?

Maybe I'm missing a joke here lol ?
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Will
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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy
MikeDowd wrote:
big__rhino wrote:
I consistently urge the people in my club and regular game night to play every game with honor and within the spirit of the rules.



"Spirit of the rules" let's you place some stupid ethical judgement on how someone plays within the boundaries of the rules. And it can only be enforced by changing the rules.

Go ahead and implement house rules if there's something you don't like, but hindering peoples creativity with some ethical judgement is like, all the worst parts of organized religion.

Personally, I think one of the beautiful things about an updated game like this that has stood the test of time (hundreds of thousands of plays) is that it accounts for every situation that can come up. It's a very stable version 3.0 and anything either player can come up with is well within the "Spirit of the rules".


So that post about taking 10 minutes on every marine turn because he deliberately hadn't finished examining the command point counter is OK then because the rules reworded that part in 3rd edition to not be as clear? He plans the entire turn out at his leisure without a timer while holding up the command counter. Thats within the letter of the rules from what I can tell. And I certainly do NOT agree with you that this (which is anything someone can come up with) is in the spirit of the rules.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/443469

Page 9 of 3rd ed rules
Quote:
It is the Genestealer player's responsibility to start the timer. He does this after the Space Marine player has placed the command points marker on the '0' space of the mission status display

Emphasis added

1st edition rules
Quote:
In the Set Timer Phase, the Stealer player announces the beginning
of the Marine player’s turn, From then on, he keeps track of the
passage of time on a stopwatch or wristwatch; once three minutes
have passed, the Marine player’s turn is over.


Definately a step backword in rules changes. They opened up a loophole there in 3rd ed for someone who is a jerk to try and exploit the letter of the rules but not the spirit. That looks like less stability to me, not more.

IMHO, in an unclear situation, the spirit of the rules can help be a guide to what should be done. It certainly can't always help, in some situations I've seen a FAQ in other games clear up, its been officially ruled a certain way in order to not bog the game down with fiddly stuff, even if its against what one might see as the best way (spirit) to determine something.

But I certainly wouldn't state that spirit or letter is always right 100% of the time no exceptions. I just pointed out an exception in Space Hulk 3rd edition itself that disproves your statement.
Heck there are some games ship with rules that are totally broken and basically unplayable, and end up getting fixed by players since the game publisher doesn't bother with it.

Incidentally, this is one of the reasons why in the USA there are trials by jury of peers, because the letter of the law does NOT always cover every situation fairly. And some areas of the law are so vague or unclear or situationally based it requires a court case for EVERY SINGLE conflict. One example of this would be fair use in copyright. There are guidelines but each case must individually be decided by the courts based on a number of factors.

Anyway, my 2 rambling cents.
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Ryan Morgan
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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy
Quote:
So the the strat the OP is talking about is dishonorable and against the rules?


Its not a "strategy" really its blatant manipulation in order to win. People go to jail for that when they do it with money. Its called Fraud.

 
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Rob Corn
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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy
Yargo wrote:
So that post about taking 10 minutes on every marine turn because he deliberately hadn't finished examining the command point counter is OK then because the rules reworded that part in 3rd edition to not be as clear? He plans the entire turn out at his leisure without a timer while holding up the command counter. Thats within the letter of the rules from what I can tell. And I certainly do NOT agree with you that this (which is anything someone can come up with) is in the spirit of the rules.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/443469

Page 9 of 3rd ed rules
Quote:
It is the Genestealer player's responsibility to start the timer. He does this after the Space Marine player has placed the command points marker on the '0' space of the mission status display

Emphasis added

1st edition rules
Quote:
In the Set Timer Phase, the Stealer player announces the beginning
of the Marine player’s turn, From then on, he keeps track of the
passage of time on a stopwatch or wristwatch; once three minutes
have passed, the Marine player’s turn is over.


Definately a step backword in rules changes. They opened up a loophole there in 3rd ed for someone who is a jerk to try and exploit the letter of the rules but not the spirit. That looks like less stability to me, not more.

I understand the point you're making, but the first rule from page 9 is:

"After examining the counter he places it face down on the '0' space on the command track of the mission status display board, without showing it to the Genestealer player."

When the SM player is done examining the counter, it's time to go shoot some stuff... as soon as his eyes leave that counter it has to go on the mat. Anyway, back to the thread...
 
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Will
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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy
Haggis wrote:
Yargo wrote:
So that post about taking 10 minutes on every marine turn because he deliberately hadn't finished examining the command point counter is OK then because the rules reworded that part in 3rd edition to not be as clear? He plans the entire turn out at his leisure without a timer while holding up the command counter. Thats within the letter of the rules from what I can tell. And I certainly do NOT agree with you that this (which is anything someone can come up with) is in the spirit of the rules.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/443469

Page 9 of 3rd ed rules
Quote:
It is the Genestealer player's responsibility to start the timer. He does this after the Space Marine player has placed the command points marker on the '0' space of the mission status display

Emphasis added

1st edition rules
Quote:
In the Set Timer Phase, the Stealer player announces the beginning
of the Marine player’s turn, From then on, he keeps track of the
passage of time on a stopwatch or wristwatch; once three minutes
have passed, the Marine player’s turn is over.


Definately a step backword in rules changes. They opened up a loophole there in 3rd ed for someone who is a jerk to try and exploit the letter of the rules but not the spirit. That looks like less stability to me, not more.

I understand the point you're making, but the first rule from page 9 is:

"After examining the counter he places it face down on the '0' space on the command track of the mission status display board, without showing it to the Genestealer player."

When the SM player is done examining the counter, it's time to go shoot some stuff... as soon as his eyes leave that counter it has to go on the mat. Anyway, back to the thread...


The excuse from a jerky player who only played by letter of the rules (and not the spirit) would be that he'd hold the counter in front of his eyes and examine both the board and the counter at same time. It would never leave his field of vision, so he'd be examining the counter for the whole 10 mins. So he's never "done" examining the counter.
 
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Tom

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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy
big__rhino wrote:
Quote:
So the the strat the OP is talking about is dishonorable and against the rules?


Its not a "strategy" really its blatant manipulation in order to win. People go to jail for that when they do it with money. Its called Fraud.



Um, not really sure how that's fraud, but whatever lol.

Some might say "blatant manipulation in order to win" is the very definition of strategy!



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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy
Sagrilarus wrote:

    It's very likely the Marine player will be pleased to see you cloistering your early blips. Given the choice, he has no intention of being in the hulk long enough for those threes to come out multiple times.



Exactly, this is one of those strategies that only work if the marine player is an incompetent (in which case a strategy probably isn't needed anyway).
 
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Ryan Morgan
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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy
Definition of Fraud:

Quote:
deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.


Its not?

 
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Re: Hogging the "3" blips.. a devious strategy
Yargo wrote:
The excuse from a jerky player who only played by letter of the rules (and not the spirit) would be that he'd hold the counter in front of his eyes and examine both the board and the counter at same time. It would never leave his field of vision, so he'd be examining the counter for the whole 10 mins. So he's never "done" examining the counter.

That's when you hit 'em with your cat!
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