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Subject: Help evaluating this scenario? rss

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Murray Lewis
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Could someone more knowledgeable in the ways of Diplomacy help me work out what would happen in this scenario?

There is a German army in Burgundy, a French army in Paris and an English army in Brest.

The German army moves to Paris, supported by the English army.
The French army in Paris simultaneously puts in an order to move to Burgundy.

Can someone clarify what happens? The bit referring to these situations in the rulebook kinda made my head hurt. blush

Also, what happens if the situation is identical to above, but the move from Paris to Burgundy is supported by another French army in Gascony?
 
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Calavera Despierta
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Ok, I am not looking at a map, but I think this is correct:

because the German A Bur has support from English A Bre, Paris is taken by the Germans no matter what. Because Paris was taken from the army coming from Burgandy, and armies cannot attack into the territory from which they are being attacked (whether the German A Bur - Par was successful or not), I believe the French A Par - Bur fails. Because it cannot retreat back to Paris, it is thus dislodged.

I would have to check the rulebook for the second example.
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Claudio
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Yup, in the first instance Bur-Par works. Par retreats.

In the second instance, its a bounce. Unless one of the supports is cut.
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True Blue Jon
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Except that Gas can't support Par-Bur since Gas can't reach Bur.
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Blorb Plorbst
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claudio212 wrote:
Yup, in the first instance Bur-Par works. Par retreats.

In the second instance, its a bounce. Unless one of the supports is cut.

+1
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Ken
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MScrivner wrote:
and armies cannot attack into the territory from which they are being attacked


This is a bad way to look at it. Paris can certainly attack Burgundy, it's a question of whether or not the attack succeeds, and only one of the moves will succeed (armies/fleets can't trade places during movement).

Instead, look at it as a meeting engagement at the border of Burgundy and Paris. Compare the total support and attackers. The winner of the engagement is the side with the most support for the attack. In this case, you've an unsupported move against a supported move, so it wins and the Germans take Paris, dislodging the French. If the French had legal support for their move to Burgundy, it'd be a bounce.

This is also a more useful way to look at it when you have lots of moves going in to a single area. Consider

Rus A Sev-Rum
Rus A UKR S Rus A Sev-Rum
Tur A Bul-Rum
Tur F Bla S Tur A Bul-Rum
Aus A Rum hold

The Russians and Turks actually bounce in Rumania, leaving the Austrian army there even though it would have lost either of those conflicts individually. You're only dislodged if the attack actually succeeds.

I hope this helps. Getting order resolution right sometimes causes migraines.
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Ken
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quozl wrote:
Except that Gas can't support Par-Bur since Gas can't reach Bur.


Jon, you been drinking? Gascony borders Burgundy. Right there in southern France
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True Blue Jon
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perfalbion wrote:
quozl wrote:
Except that Gas can't support Par-Bur since Gas can't reach Bur.


Jon, you been drinking? Gascony borders Burgundy. Right there in southern France


Not enough! My memory isn't what it used to be. Thanks for the correction.
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Claudio
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quozl wrote:
Except that Gas can't support Par-Bur since Gas can't reach Bur.


?!?


 
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Calavera Despierta
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perfalbion wrote:
MScrivner wrote:
and armies cannot attack into the territory from which they are being attacked


This is a bad way to look at it. Paris can certainly attack Burgundy, it's a question of whether or not the attack succeeds, and only one of the moves will succeed (armies/fleets can't trade places during movement).

Instead, look at it as a meeting engagement at the border of Burgundy and Paris. Compare the total support and attackers. The winner of the engagement is the side with the most support for the attack. In this case, you've an unsupported move against a supported move, so it wins and the Germans take Paris, dislodging the French. If the French had legal support for their move to Burgundy, it'd be a bounce.

This is also a more useful way to look at it when you have lots of moves going in to a single area. Consider

Rus A Sev-Rum
Rus A UKR S Rus A Sev-Rum
Tur A Bul-Rum
Tur F Bla S Tur A Bul-Rum
Aus A Rum hold

The Russians and Turks actually bounce in Rumania, leaving the Austrian army there even though it would have lost either of those conflicts individually. You're only dislodged if the attack actually succeeds.

I hope this helps. Getting order resolution right sometimes causes migraines.


Yes. Exactly. What he said. I was just trying to keep it simple.
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Murray Lewis
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Thanks guys!
 
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Ken
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MScrivner wrote:
Yes. Exactly. What he said. I was just trying to keep it simple.


I understand, but the way you look at it is important. If you follow the approach you suggested ("You can't attack a province that's attacking you"), then the German army's attack in the example should also fail because there's a French army attacking it. Right?
 
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Calavera Despierta
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A metaphor for thinking about this that is highly useful is the idea that movement on the Diplomacy map is like a game of musical chairs. No two people can every occupy the same chair when the music stops, and the only thing that keeps people from slamming into each other when they are coming from adjacent chairs and trying to trade chairs is if one of them has help from a person in a third chair who can trip the other guy.
 
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