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Sam I am
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I haven't seen Tripp on RSP in days. I hope he's ok?
(NO....I'm not trying to be a smart ass.)
 
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rcbevco wrote:
I haven't seen Tripp on RSP in days. I hope he's ok?
(NO....I'm not trying to be a smart ass.)


I'm working on a plan to revamp RSP and make it more equitable a forum for views that diverge from the far left mindset. More to come.
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You've most likely been sticking to the serious P threads. I've doing more R & S and have been in a silly mood lately. (avoiding the hard core stuff). (Gotta up my meds)
 
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DWTripp wrote:
I'm working on a plan to revamp RSP and make it more equitable a forum for views that diverge from the far left moderately conservative mindset. More to come.


Translated for politically educated readers.
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Wray Cason
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HeinzGuderian wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
I'm working on a plan to revamp RSP and make it more equitable a forum for views that diverge from the far left moderately conservative mindset. More to come.


Translated for politically educated readers.
This seems like a fine place to bring up a gripe of mine about political name calling. There seems to me to be two divergent points of view. An U.S. centric point of view and an European/global point of view. I am personally tired of European/global judgment being superimposed on U.S. political perspectives. I don't care that the U.S. left is right of the international norm. That is not relevant as far as I am concerned. "Left" and "right" are vague enough as it is without irrelevant international comparisons. In my opinion, generally speaking, labels like "left" and "right" should only be applied within their respective spheres.
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Fair enough. Just two points; first, it's not that European labels are overimposed, it's that the idea is European (in the loose sense of "European thought and its derivatives", that is, roughly "Western") and is applied consistently throughout the world; second, you can also say that Stalin was "extremely conservative", which is true in the context of Soviet politics in the 20s and 30s but is just ludicrous as a label in any less myopic context; "left and right" only make sense as two ends of a scale. If you arbitrarily set the center of the scale near one end, in addition to being counter-intuitive, it justs prevents any kind of comparison. If American moderate conservatives are far left, what would a Social Democratic party be, extreme left? And a radical democratic party? And a socialist party? And a communist party? Further left? Furthest left? Ultra left? Plus-quam-left?

Of course, all countries have their political idiosincracy, and political spectra don't match each other - but we can discuss such things precisely because we can agree on a general framework of labels, positions and ideologies.

Even worse, parties and politicians labelled here as "left" receive then criticism that would apply to real leftists - so it's not just a semantic problem - it is used as a political argumentation.
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I disagree that political affiliations such as far right and moderate left are played out on a line. What I am talking about (and what I think most people are talking about even though they may not know it) with this language is a bell curve.

I'm not going to get pedantic about how many standard deviations it takes to become far right or left but this model specifically bases things on a center as determined by where the majority of people fall politically. The spectrum has no end, but we can acknowledge that there are groups on the right and the left that are both very extreme and thus very small. After a certain point it really doesn't matter how far out a group is in this model...we can just see that they are radical fringe.

That is why I think Wrayman's point is valid. Our moderates would fall on the right in European politics, but it is still moderate for us. It smacks a bit of Imperialism to say that the Western outlook is some kind of great standard for gaining political clarity. I disagree that the standard is applied consistently throughout the world.

Honestly, I don't know why this causes you and other Europeans so much consternation. I don't spare a thought on the fact that you are all a bunch of whiny, spineless commies (I kid, I kid).
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Wrayman wrote:
I am personally tired of European/global judgment being superimposed on U.S. political perspectives. I don't care that the U.S. left is right of the international norm. That is not relevant as far as I am concerned.

We all fall somewhere on a an objective political spectrum, and it's a fact that the US skews right on that spectrum. That's certainly relevant, even if you don't care about it. The world is global these days; the US can no longer make the rules and assume everyone else wil play by them 'just because'. BGG is as good a place to learn that as any.
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CapAp wrote:
Wrayman wrote:
I am personally tired of European/global judgment being superimposed on U.S. political perspectives. I don't care that the U.S. left is right of the international norm. That is not relevant as far as I am concerned.

We all fall somewhere on a an objective political spectrum, and it's a fact that the US skews right on that spectrum. That's certainly relevant, even if you don't care about it. The world is global these days; the US can no longer make the rules and assume everyone else wil play by them 'just because'. BGG is as good a place to learn that as any.
The world is global but political decisions are not. Neither are political cultures. They are very particular to specific countries. The vast majority or political discourse here in RSP and generally in the U.S. pertains to the U.S., not the international scene. International political norms aren't relevant in these cases. Where we are talking about international matters, then the comparison is relevant.
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Benjro wrote:
I disagree that political affiliations such as far right and moderate left are played out on a line. What I am talking about (and what I think most people are talking about even though they may not know it) with this language is a bell curve.



It is actually likely a series of bell curves (aka a mixture model) with different distributions that are centered at different places on the line. So both comparisons make sense -- it makes sense to compare the US's bell curve with the rest of the world (which the most of the curve would be to the right of the world) and and it makes sense to discuss the variation within the US's curve. Both descriptions relay pieces of information that are differentially revelent depending on the context.
 
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Wrayman wrote:
HeinzGuderian wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
I'm working on a plan to revamp RSP and make it more equitable a forum for views that diverge from the far left moderately conservative mindset. More to come.


Translated for politically educated readers.
This seems like a fine place to bring up a gripe of mine about political name calling. There seems to me to be two divergent points of view. An U.S. centric point of view and an European/global point of view. I am personally tired of European/global judgment being superimposed on U.S. political perspectives. I don't care that the U.S. left is right of the international norm. That is not relevant as far as I am concerned. "Left" and "right" are vague enough as it is without irrelevant international comparisons. In my opinion, generally speaking, labels like "left" and "right" should only be applied within their respective spheres.


I understand that "left/right" are used as short for democrat and republican, that's ok.
But calling American liberals "far left" is really idiotic. Words have a meaning: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_left



http://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2008
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Wrayman wrote:
The vast majority or political discourse here in RSP and generally in the U.S. pertains to the U.S., not the international scene. International political norms aren't relevant in these cases. Where we are talking about international matters, then the comparison is relevant.

You'd have a point if we were MAKING policy, but we are not. We are all uninvolved observers TALKING about policy.

It's like disallowing men from posting in the Women And Gaming forum. Sure, the threads are ABOUT women, but men mustn't be discouraged from joining the conversation, otherwise there's no point in conversation in the first place. This can be extrapolated as far as you like. Should only conservatives post on Tripp threads, because he's talking about conservative ideals? Nonsense.
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CapAp wrote:
Wrayman wrote:
The vast majority or political discourse here in RSP and generally in the U.S. pertains to the U.S., not the international scene. International political norms aren't relevant in these cases. Where we are talking about international matters, then the comparison is relevant.

You'd have a point if we were MAKING policy, but we are not. We are all uninvolved observers TALKING about policy.

It's like disallowing men from posting in the Women And Gaming forum. Sure, the threads are ABOUT women, but men mustn't be discouraged from joining the conversation, otherwise there's no point in conversation in the first place. This can be extrapolated as far as you like. Should only conservatives post on Tripp threads, because he's talking about conservative ideals? Nonsense.


I think you're missing the point Cap. It's fine that in Europe left/right has a different meaning and nobody here is attempting to get European posters to change their standards to ours. It's annoying that in almost every thread about politics the same old "voices" derail the thread into a discussion of what left/right means to them and a pronouncement that America needs to somehow understand that.

I understand exactly what is being said already and foreign interjections and derailments of this sort are pretty much just a fucking nuisance.
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DWTripp wrote:
CapAp wrote:
Wrayman wrote:
The vast majority or political discourse here in RSP and generally in the U.S. pertains to the U.S., not the international scene. International political norms aren't relevant in these cases. Where we are talking about international matters, then the comparison is relevant.

You'd have a point if we were MAKING policy, but we are not. We are all uninvolved observers TALKING about policy.

It's like disallowing men from posting in the Women And Gaming forum. Sure, the threads are ABOUT women, but men mustn't be discouraged from joining the conversation, otherwise there's no point in conversation in the first place. This can be extrapolated as far as you like. Should only conservatives post on Tripp threads, because he's talking about conservative ideals? Nonsense.


I think you're missing the point Cap. It's fine that in Europe left/right has a different meaning and nobody here is attempting to get European posters to change their standards to ours. It's annoying that in almost every thread about politics the same old "voices" derail the thread into a discussion of what left/right means to them and a pronouncement that America needs to somehow understand that.

I understand exactly what is being said already and foreign interjections and derailments of this sort are pretty much just a fucking nuisance.


The reason those arguments happen is because someone, typically a conservative, starts comparing the American left an the old European left. For example, when you call Obama a socialist you are asking for people to tell you once again that you are being unfair, to both Obama and the socialists.

And, while you can easily argue that left and right are relative, it's much harder to claim that socialism is relative. And the moment you claim that, you don't get to complain if we bring Zombie Bush back, and call him a fascist.
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DWTripp wrote:
It's annoying that in almost every thread about politics the same old "voices" derail the thread into a discussion of what left/right means to them and a pronouncement that America needs to somehow understand that.

You're going to have to point me to the threads where that has happened before I'll bite. In my experience, the European users don't bring it up until our... lets say our more "liberty"-minded American users do.

Quote:
I understand exactly what is being said already and foreign interjections and derailments of this sort are pretty much just a fucking nuisance.

Many things in RSP are a fucking nuisance, my friend. That's what makes it such a blast!
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Wrayman wrote:
HeinzGuderian wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
I'm working on a plan to revamp RSP and make it more equitable a forum for views that diverge from the far left moderately conservative mindset. More to come.


Translated for politically educated readers.
This seems like a fine place to bring up a gripe of mine about political name calling. There seems to me to be two divergent points of view. An U.S. centric point of view and an European/global point of view. I am personally tired of European/global judgment being superimposed on U.S. political perspectives. I don't care that the U.S. left is right of the international norm. That is not relevant as far as I am concerned. "Left" and "right" are vague enough as it is without irrelevant international comparisons. In my opinion, generally speaking, labels like "left" and "right" should only be applied within their respective spheres.


But Wray, what if its just us poor innocent Europeans who are tired of the US left-right distinction being forced on them. Is it ok then?
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bjlillo wrote:

Any graph that has Ron Paul on the "authoritarian" side of the line is pretty silly.

This is the kind of ignorant nonsense that leads Europeans to want to educate us about world politics.

Learn moar.
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hibikir wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
CapAp wrote:
Wrayman wrote:
The vast majority or political discourse here in RSP and generally in the U.S. pertains to the U.S., not the international scene. International political norms aren't relevant in these cases. Where we are talking about international matters, then the comparison is relevant.

You'd have a point if we were MAKING policy, but we are not. We are all uninvolved observers TALKING about policy.

It's like disallowing men from posting in the Women And Gaming forum. Sure, the threads are ABOUT women, but men mustn't be discouraged from joining the conversation, otherwise there's no point in conversation in the first place. This can be extrapolated as far as you like. Should only conservatives post on Tripp threads, because he's talking about conservative ideals? Nonsense.


I think you're missing the point Cap. It's fine that in Europe left/right has a different meaning and nobody here is attempting to get European posters to change their standards to ours. It's annoying that in almost every thread about politics the same old "voices" derail the thread into a discussion of what left/right means to them and a pronouncement that America needs to somehow understand that.

I understand exactly what is being said already and foreign interjections and derailments of this sort are pretty much just a fucking nuisance.


The reason those arguments happen is because someone, typically a conservative, starts comparing the American left an the old European left. For example, when you call Obama a socialist you are asking for people to tell you once again that you are being unfair, to both Obama and the socialists.

And, while you can easily argue that left and right are relative, it's much harder to claim that socialism is relative. And the moment you claim that, you don't get to complain if we bring Zombie Bush back, and call him a fascist.
"Socialism" is as mushy and vague as "left" and "right" are. It is not as firm a notion as you make it out to be. Progressive U.S. politicians a century ago used the word "socialism" in relation to their policy priorities. It certainly has an U.S. context and it is significantly different than the old world context. "Socialism" needs context as much as "left" and "right" do.
 
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Venga2 wrote:
Wrayman wrote:
HeinzGuderian wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
I'm working on a plan to revamp RSP and make it more equitable a forum for views that diverge from the far left moderately conservative mindset. More to come.


Translated for politically educated readers.
This seems like a fine place to bring up a gripe of mine about political name calling. There seems to me to be two divergent points of view. An U.S. centric point of view and an European/global point of view. I am personally tired of European/global judgment being superimposed on U.S. political perspectives. I don't care that the U.S. left is right of the international norm. That is not relevant as far as I am concerned. "Left" and "right" are vague enough as it is without irrelevant international comparisons. In my opinion, generally speaking, labels like "left" and "right" should only be applied within their respective spheres.


But Wray, what if its just us poor innocent Europeans who are tired of the US left-right distinction being forced on them. Is it ok then?
I can't think of an example of that. Insofar as it happens, I do not approve. Distinctions need to be made.
 
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bjlillo wrote:

Ignorant nonsense? He's an anarcho-capitalist. There's nothing authoritarian at all about his ideology.

Awesome. I love mooshing two words that you like together in order to make a word you REALLY like, in order to describe something super awesome. Let me try: I am an astro-doctor. Hells yeah, I rule.

Ron Paul is not "anarcho"-anything; he has held and continues to run for public office, which means he has been, likes being, and wants to continue to be in charge of you. Ron Paul is a capitalist, which means he is authoritarian. In the context of that graph, "libertarian" doesn't mean the silly things you think it means, like 'income tax is illegal'. Here's what I mean by ignorant nonsense: you demonstrate your ignorance of what that graph is postulating by spouting nonsense in an attempt to deride it.

It doesn't require being European to think that attiude could use correction.
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Wrayman wrote:
Venga2 wrote:
Wrayman wrote:
HeinzGuderian wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
I'm working on a plan to revamp RSP and make it more equitable a forum for views that diverge from the far left moderately conservative mindset. More to come.


Translated for politically educated readers.
This seems like a fine place to bring up a gripe of mine about political name calling. There seems to me to be two divergent points of view. An U.S. centric point of view and an European/global point of view. I am personally tired of European/global judgment being superimposed on U.S. political perspectives. I don't care that the U.S. left is right of the international norm. That is not relevant as far as I am concerned. "Left" and "right" are vague enough as it is without irrelevant international comparisons. In my opinion, generally speaking, labels like "left" and "right" should only be applied within their respective spheres.


But Wray, what if its just us poor innocent Europeans who are tired of the US left-right distinction being forced on them. Is it ok then?
I can't think of an example of that. Insofar as it happens, I do not approve. Distinctions need to be made.


Trust me when I say that the cultural influence of the US on the world is FAR greater than vice versa. This includes political definitions. But I am glad you disagree.
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bjlillo wrote:

Capitalism is authoritarian? Wow, no wonder I don't get the graph. That's the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time.

Hahahha! Quoted for posterity.
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I think Ron Paul's position on the graph is accurate, and I say that as someone who -- while not a Ron Paul supporter -- thought he was the least bad, policy-wise, out of the Republican candidates last election cycle. Of course he was unelectable due to his crazy grandpa personality and racist past, but that's besides the point.

Paul is most certainly NOT an anarcho-capitalist. I am unaware of any statement he's made where he advocates dissolving all government and replacing it with privately-funded services.

He is lukewarm, i.e. middle-of-the-road, i.e. positioned accurately on that graph in:

- church-state separation.
- flag-burning (he introduced an amendment in 1997 to allow states to ban it).
- abortion (he is against the federal government ruling on it but thinks states have the right to outlaw it).

In general Paul's opposition to authoritarian social programs is not based on a consistent pro-liberty stance but on his belief that the federal government should not get involved, but state governments may violate people's liberties to a much greater degree.
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As long as "socialist" is the preferred insult for tagging someone with so you can then decry them and everything they stand for, people (European or not) are going to continue to say its silly to define a socialist as anyone to the left of whatever political line in the sand you just make up.
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