Wulf Corbett
Scotland
Shotts
Lanarkshire
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We played another game yesterday (Proto-Crocs beat Beak Lizards at the end of the Mesozoic, after lagging throughout the game before that!), and I got a nagging feeling I was misreading some rules...

After an Immigrant finds a cosy Biome to live in, does it spread out from there, or stay in the one Biome unless it disappears?

If a Biome is forced into a Borderland by any means, does it expand to fill that space (4 points)?

Another post today said that an empty space in a hex was defined as marine because of the Greenhouse level. Sounds sensible, but where is that in the rules?

If a new Biome appears, and there's an empty slot it could move into, BUT the neighbouring space in the same hex is at 4... well, what happens?

I'll keep my previous opinions to myself in case they prove embarrassing
3 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gunther Schmidl
Austria
Linz
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
Re: I may be getting this wrong...
From my reading of the rules (also for a game yesterday!),

Quote:
After an Immigrant finds a cosy Biome to live in, does it spread out from there, or stay in the one Biome unless it disappears?


It stays there, expanding to the maximum allowable size, rule A4.g:

Quote:
The immigrant population continually becomes the largest that can be supported in their hex. The presence of this number of immigrants is shown by either having their card in that biome, or by using spare population tents.

Immigrant cards or tents remain (continually following prey migrations or biome displacements) until they are culled by competition, or are wiped out by a catastrophe.



Quote:
If a Biome is forced into a Borderland by any means, does it expand to fill that space (4 points)?


Yes, it expands to fill that space, rule A1.g:

Quote:
Except for orogeny cards, the new biome is rotated to fill the remainder of the space in the hex, i.e., so that the uppermost numbers of both biomes add up to four.




Quote:
Another post today said that an empty space in a hex was defined as marine because of the Greenhouse level. Sounds sensible, but where is that in the rules?


It says so on the greenhouse track, and rule P5.h of the living rulebook:

Quote:
Slots. Either of the two card-sized squares in a hex. Biome cards are stored in either the east or west slot. An empty slot is terrestrial (land) if the Greenhouse Level is below 300 ppm, otherwise it is marine.


Quote:
If a new Biome appears, and there's an empty slot it could move into, BUT the neighbouring space in the same hex is at 4... well, what happens?


Rule A1.d:

Quote:
Note: Biomes which are at biomass 4 fill both slots, thus there is no empty slot in that hex.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wulf Corbett
Scotland
Shotts
Lanarkshire
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: I may be getting this wrong...
gschmidl wrote:
Wulf wrote:
After an Immigrant finds a cosy Biome to live in, does it spread out from there, or stay in the one Biome unless it disappears?
It stays there, expanding to the maximum allowable size, rule A4.g:
Quote:
The immigrant population continually becomes the largest that can be supported in their hex. The presence of this number of immigrants is shown by either having their card in that biome, or by using spare population tents.

Immigrant cards or tents remain (continually following prey migrations or biome displacements) until they are culled by competition, or are wiped out by a catastrophe.
You know, I read that, but that bit about 'following prey migrations or biome displacements' had me confused. What happens, for instance, if the prey is wiped out by any means?
Quote:
Wulf wrote:
If a Biome is forced into a Borderland by any means, does it expand to fill that space (4 points)?
Yes, it expands to fill that space, rule A1.g:
I'm good on that one.
Quote:
Wulf wrote:
Another post today said that an empty space in a hex was defined as marine because of the Greenhouse level. Sounds sensible, but where is that in the rules?
It says so on the greenhouse track, and rule P5.h of the living rulebook:
I have to read that map a bit more... Luckily this has never been an issue.
Quote:
Wulf wrote:
If a new Biome appears, and there's an empty slot it could move into, BUT the neighbouring space in the same hex is at 4... well, what happens?
Rule A1.d:
Quote:
Note: Biomes which are at biomass 4 fill both slots, thus there is no empty slot in that hex.
Yes, but what then? Just choose the lowest climax Biome to displace, I assume - meaning if the lowest is the one in the other slot, the new one arrives at biomass 4? And if it has a maximum Biomass 2 (which happened), it arrives at 2, and leaves an empty slot?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gunther Schmidl
Austria
Linz
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
Re: I may be getting this wrong...
Wulf wrote:
You know, I read that, but that bit about 'following prey migrations or biome displacements' had me confused. What happens, for instance, if the prey is wiped out by any means?


I'm going to say they starve to death on the next predator cull, since they have no prey. Can't find anything in the rules that says otherwise, but I'm not too clear on immigrants to be honest.

Wulf wrote:
Yes, but what then? Just choose the lowest climax Biome to displace, I assume - meaning if the lowest is the one in the other slot, the new one arrives at biomass 4? And if it has a maximum Biomass 2 (which happened), it arrives at 2, and leaves an empty slot?


No, if one biome is already at 4, the other slot in its hex does not exist. You'll have to place the new biome elsewhere, and if you can't, it's dead on arrival and discarded.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wulf Corbett
Scotland
Shotts
Lanarkshire
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: I may be getting this wrong...
gschmidl wrote:
Wulf wrote:
Yes, but what then? Just choose the lowest climax Biome to displace, I assume - meaning if the lowest is the one in the other slot, the new one arrives at biomass 4? And if it has a maximum Biomass 2 (which happened), it arrives at 2, and leaves an empty slot?

No, if one biome is already at 4, the other slot in its hex does not exist. You'll have to place the new biome elsewhere, and if you can't, it's dead on arrival and discarded.
But if the new Biome has a higher climax than the existing one (which has biomass 4), and that existing one is the lowest, the new one will displace it.

However, I just realised, if the new one only has maximum biomass 2, it'll just shunt the old one to the empty slot, and reduce it to biomass 2 as well (as per rule A1).

So, I'm sorted, thanks
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard J. Grandia
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: I may be getting this wrong...
Wulf Corbett wrote:
gschmidl wrote:
Wulf wrote:
Yes, but what then? Just choose the lowest climax Biome to displace, I assume - meaning if the lowest is the one in the other slot, the new one arrives at biomass 4? And if it has a maximum Biomass 2 (which happened), it arrives at 2, and leaves an empty slot?

No, if one biome is already at 4, the other slot in its hex does not exist. You'll have to place the new biome elsewhere, and if you can't, it's dead on arrival and discarded.
But if the new Biome has a higher climax than the existing one (which has biomass 4), and that existing one is the lowest, the new one will displace it.

However, I just realised, if the new one only has maximum biomass 2, it'll just shunt the old one to the empty slot, and reduce it to biomass 2 as well (as per rule A1).

So, I'm sorted, thanks


... unless (at least that's the way I read the rules) the greenhouse level is at 300ppm or over, in which case the empty slot is flooded and the displaced biome will have nowhere to go.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wulf Corbett
Scotland
Shotts
Lanarkshire
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: I may be getting this wrong...
Rick Grandia wrote:
... unless (at least that's the way I read the rules) the greenhouse level is at 300ppm or over, in which case the empty slot is flooded and the displaced biome will have nowhere to go.
Even if an empty slot is considered marine due to Greenhouse level, I don't see why that would stop a new (or displaced) Biome moving in. Terrestrial Biomes replace marine normally, don't they?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard J. Grandia
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: I may be getting this wrong...
Wulf Corbett wrote:
Rick Grandia wrote:
... unless (at least that's the way I read the rules) the greenhouse level is at 300ppm or over, in which case the empty slot is flooded and the displaced biome will have nowhere to go.
Even if an empty slot is considered marine due to Greenhouse level, I don't see why that would stop a new (or displaced) Biome moving in. Terrestrial Biomes replace marine normally, don't they?


Do they? To be honest, I don't know. From my reading of the rules, I always assumed that flooded slots would only accept marine biomes, but I could be wrong. In the thread I started yesterday (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/448933), I also had a question about marine biomes being able to cross flooded land bridges. Günther thought not (the RAW agree with him - A1, Displaced Biomes, d): Displacement Limitations: "Biomes are blocked from displacement [...] if displacing would [...] cross a flooded land bridge [...]"), but if there's an open water connection I don't see why a marine biome could not move through. If the water's deep enough to stop dinosaurs, it's also deep enough to allow fish and other critters to cross.
Maybe this one will have to be bumped all the way up to Phil.

... and just in case you're wondering why I keep ranting on about this: as you can see, I'm Dutch - and we take sea level changes very seriously over here ... gulp



3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wulf Corbett
Scotland
Shotts
Lanarkshire
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: I may be getting this wrong...
Rick Grandia wrote:
I also had a question about marine biomes being able to cross flooded land bridges. Günther thought not (the RAW agree with him - A1, Displaced Biomes, d): Displacement Limitations: "Biomes are blocked from displacement [...] if displacing would [...] cross a flooded land bridge [...]"), but if there's an open water connection I don't see why a marine biome could not move through. If the water's deep enough to stop dinosaurs, it's also deep enough to allow fish and other critters to cross.
The 'empty' marine slots block migration because there's no food there - why would animals cross any depth of water with no food? We're talking hundreds of miles here... But flooded land bridges are possibly thousands of miles (or at least a thousand), and vastly deeper. Even the double-M Biomes are just lakes & inland seas, not oceans!
Quote:
... and just in case you're wondering why I keep ranting on about this: as you can see, I'm Dutch - and we take sea level changes very seriously over here ... gulp
Scotland is, apparently, still rising after the weight of ice from the last ice age was removed. At the same time, England is sinking.

How sad

Anyway, Holland is a single-M Biome at wettest...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darrell Pavitt
United Kingdom
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: I may be getting this wrong...
Quote:
Do they? To be honest, I don't know. From my reading of the rules, I always assumed that flooded slots would only accept marine biomes, but I could be wrong.


Empty slots only matter (as far as marine or terrestrial) when trying to cross them.

The only limits to placing biomes is that marine cannot occupy orogeny, and orogeny can only occupy orogeny. Once you place a terrestrial biome in a flooded slot, it is no longer flooded as it is no longer empty.

Quote:
Scotland is, apparently, still rising after the weight of ice from the last ice age was removed. At the same time, England is sinking.


My decendants had better get the DNA that repels marauding Haggis.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard J. Grandia
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: I may be getting this wrong...
Quote:
Do they? To be honest, I don't know. From my reading of the rules, I always assumed that flooded slots would only accept marine biomes, but I could be wrong.


nyhotep wrote:
Empty slots only matter (as far as marine or terrestrial) when trying to cross them.

The only limits to placing biomes is that marine cannot occupy orogeny, and orogeny can only occupy orogeny. Once you place a terrestrial biome in a flooded slot, it is no longer flooded as it is no longer empty.


Aha - that's probably where I got the wrong idea. Of course, the map hexes and their biome slots are all continental shelf, and so shallow that a comparatively minor uplift or major sedimentation episode could turn them into dry land again. After the greenhouse event left the Gulf of Mexico, Panama and part of Sierra Madre flooded I was wondering how long it was going to take for all those slots to fill up with biomes again if all of them had to be marine. I couldn't imagine that a stretch of open sea would remain a watery desert for upwards of 60 million years with fish, crustaceans and whatnot being able to swim/crawl/drift in at will - not to mention the fact that every single terrestrial biome you drew would be DOA if it couldn't compete with one already on the map.

That's a problem with this game - it's got such an enormous scope that eventually you start thinking that it's a simulation of Life, the Universe and Everything. I'm grateful to you gentlemen for restoring my sense of perspective

Quote:
Scotland is, apparently, still rising after the weight of ice from the last ice age was removed. At the same time, England is sinking.


nyhotep wrote:
My decendants had better get the DNA that repels marauding Haggis.


Why repel them? Just turn carnivore. Try, if at all possible, to catch 'em in a "Tatties & Neeps"-biome - it adds considerably to the experience! laugh
3 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wulf Corbett
Scotland
Shotts
Lanarkshire
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: I may be getting this wrong...
Rick Grandia wrote:
After the greenhouse event left the Gulf of Mexico, Panama and part of Sierra Madre flooded I was wondering how long it was going to take for all those slots to fill up with biomes again if all of them had to be marine. I couldn't imagine that a stretch of open sea would remain a watery desert for upwards of 60 million years with fish, crustaceans and whatnot being able to swim/crawl/drift in at will - not to mention the fact that every single terrestrial biome you drew would be DOA if it couldn't compete with one already on the map.
On Saturday, we did end up with an enclosed inland sea full of Plesiosaurs (or a close resemblance to them), after the southern opening closed. Then the north opened up to let them out a few turns later. It was like a very very large canal lock...
Quote:
nyhotep wrote:
My decendants had better get the DNA that repels marauding Haggis.

Why repel them? Just turn carnivore. Try, if at all possible, to catch 'em in a "Tatties & Neeps"-biome - it adds considerably to the experience! laugh
Nice one
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.