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Subject: First play: a couple questions (Opportunity fire related) rss

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Bruno
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Hi there,

After printing the counters on label sheets and mounting/cutting them, i finally got to play a first game this weekend, solo, just to get a feeling of the rules. I played the minimalist intro scenario by FNH1 found in the files section.

First, yet another opportunity fire issue: when a defending unit sees an enemy unit moving from hex A to hex B and chooses to open fire on it, does it do so when the unit is still on hex A (while it leaves it) or on hex B (while entering it), or can one choose? The question came when a unit in LOS moved to a hex where LOS was blocked. Can i use opportunity fire while they run to cover?

Second, about assault move. I see the assault move counters are removed after the move ends. As i understand it, that means that the assault move inherent +1 cover works vs opportunity fire, but does *not* work in the defensive fire phase. Is that correct?

Finally, about the scenario itself. I understand this is just a minimalistic situation to learn how units move and shoot, but did i seriously misinterpret some rules or is it dead easy for the US player should he start? It seems to me that should the US player start, then moving the troops straight towards B5 makes it impossible for the german to defend. 1st turn sees the US troops move out of LOS towards the west, advance phase sees them enter LOS to B5, and allows them to shoot in the 1st german turn's defensive fire phase. And apart from a very lucky shooting phase by the german leader + half-squad, the US troops can assault or shoot on the following turn with a very good chance of a win (i had a 3-1 kill ratio + leader & grenades), without the german player being able to use a single unit from the east side due to the village hexes taking time to move across and blocking LOS.

Anyway, thanks to the author for the game. So far, i really enjoyed being able to move squad-sized counters and play a battle with minimal perusing of the rulebook, something i'm unfortunately unable to do with ASL (one day, maybe...). I have great hopes for normal-size engagements, vehicles and tanks (the rules seemed straightforward when being read), not to mention those upcoming pacific counters.
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Barry Doyle
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Re: First play: a couple questions
Hello Bruno,

Thanks for playing V&V!

1) A unit can be fired on when it enters a new hex, so in your example it is affected by Op Fire in hex B. If hex B provides a cover modifier the unit would benefit from the cover.

2) Correct -- the Assault Move marker is removed after the unit finishes its move. It gets the benefit of the +1 through its entire move,including the last hex it enters.

FNH will have to answer your last question -- I haven't played that scenario yet.

Hope this helps, and keep pushing those cardboard heroes!

-Barry
 
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Bruno
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Re: First play: a couple questions
Hi Barry,

AnglePark wrote:
1) A unit can be fired on when it enters a new hex, so in your example it is affected by Op Fire in hex B. If hex B provides a cover modifier the unit would benefit from the cover.


Right, that's what i more or less assumed. So if i have no LOS to hex B, i can't use Op fire, even though i had the unit in view when it started moving?
 
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Mark Buetow
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Re: First play: a couple questions
cafard83 wrote:
Hi Barry,

AnglePark wrote:
1) A unit can be fired on when it enters a new hex, so in your example it is affected by Op Fire in hex B. If hex B provides a cover modifier the unit would benefit from the cover.


Right, that's what i more or less assumed. So if i have no LOS to hex B, i can't use Op fire, even though i had the unit in view when it started moving?


That's right, Bruno. That's the way nearly every other squad level game does it, even ASL.
 
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Barry Doyle
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Re: First play: a couple questions
Yep, correct again, Bruno. You should declare your Op Fire before they can slip out of LOS.
 
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Bruno
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Re: First play: a couple questions
Right, thanks for that guys.
 
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Re: First play: a couple questions
That's what he's saying. What are the other questions?
 
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Re: First play: a couple questions
Be my guest David

Regarding your Op fire timing issue, i've so far assumed that it has to be declared while the unit is being moved, so no way back if you regret not having fired.

Regarding fire lanes, i have a question too. The rule says a unit using Op fire with a MG may create a fire lane. Is there a major reason not to? Does the fire lane replace the regular AP fire? So far, i played in the following order: (1) resolve usual AP Op fire, and (2) create MG fire lane. Is that correct or are (1) and (2) mutually exclusive choices?
 
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mda2 wrote:
In an OP fire stuation, multiple stacks could be moved in front of a unit that can OP fire (no support wpns). Is the OP firing player allowed to wait for all of the stacks to be physically moved by his opponent and then "call back" the stack he wishes to shoot at to the appropriate hex? (i think this is how it is in ASL, but it's been years)


No, you can't "call back." That's specifically forbidden in ASL actually. The V&V rules don't specify OP Fire "etitquette" but the usual procedure when moving is to pause in each hex long enough for the Defender to op fire if he wants.

Recall also that when a unit moves and is fired at, units ALREADY in the hex are not attacked. (This is like ASL, too).
 
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Hello David,

If you don't fire on a unit when you have the chance, and that unit (or stack of units) enters a new hex that Op Fire is "lost". You can't call a unit back to a previous location to fire on it.

However, your opponent needs to be equitable, and -- in essence -- move his units slowly enough (when Op Fire may be available) to allow you to decide on, or declare, Op Fire. He can't speed them through their move just to deny Op Fire.

It is a gamble, but one that adds to the tension and strategy. Do you fire on the smaller stack now? Or wait until a bigger stack may move through your LOS?

I've been playing a lot of Tide of Iron lately (I'm a big TOI fan), and I really like the way they handle MGs and Op Fire. As long as only the MG in a unit fires it isn't fatigued, and can fire on multiple units as they move. It has inspired some thoughts into some minor changes I may make in the V&V Captain's Edition of the rules (like give Fire Lane markers an APFP of 2, and make them stackable/cumulative). That would make moving multiple stacks a bit trickier.

-Barry
 
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cafard83 wrote:


Regarding fire lanes, i have a question too. The rule says a unit using Op fire with a MG may create a fire lane. Is there a major reason not to? Does the fire lane replace the regular AP fire? So far, i played in the following order: (1) resolve usual AP Op fire, and (2) create MG fire lane. Is that correct or are (1) and (2) mutually exclusive choices?


Yes, you would do the regular AP fire then lay down the Fire Lane. If you play ASL, it's sort of like "residual fire" (although I know full ASL has fire lanes, too). A subsequent question would be what happens if you shoot at a unit that moves into a fire lane? I would suppose you would immediately do the Fire Lane attack and then the Op Fire attack from the other units. Sounds pretty deadly which is why you don't run those guys out in the open!

 
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cafard83 wrote:
Regarding fire lanes, i have a question too. The rule says a unit using Op fire with a MG may create a fire lane. Is there a major reason not to? Does the fire lane replace the regular AP fire? So far, i played in the following order: (1) resolve usual AP Op fire, and (2) create MG fire lane. Is that correct or are (1) and (2) mutually exclusive choices?


The only reason I see not to create one would be if there are no other units for your opponent to move. Otherwise, if it can affect other units, I'd probably always create one. The rule states "may" simply because you don't have to create one.

Yep, you're resolving it correctly -- resolve Op Fire first, then create the Fire Lane. However, if a Fire Lane already exists, and a unit moves into it it'll be affected by the Fire Lane before any eligible Op Fire is resolved against it.
 
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