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Subject: What makes you an atypical Liberal/Conservative? rss

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Since DW likes to harp on generalizations of what is a Liberal and what is a Conservative, I thought, against the stereotypical Liberal and Conservative(American versions please). What areas do you diverge in?

Here are a couple that I diverge from Liberal wise:

1. Gun rights. I don't think guns kill people, I think people kill people. I think bearing arms is a "right" and should continue to be so. I do however believe "some" people shouldn't have that right, as people kill people, if you are a person who is likely to kill not in self preservation, then to hell with owning a gun.

2. Death Penalty. As I stated before, I do believe in capitol punishment. There are crimes just so vile that it goes beyond rehabilitation. Of course only when used quickly and accurately, which some says hardy ever matches.

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Interesting -- I don't really know which party I would belong to and how I would count my divergence. Here we go:

1. For gun rights
2. Against death penalty
3. For fiscal responsibility
4. For environment, within reason
5. For free markets
6. For abortion rights
7. For marriage rights (whoever wants to marry can)
8. For free trade
10. For health reform -- willing to go as far as something like Switzerland has
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SpaceGhost wrote:
Interesting -- I don't really know which party I would belong to and how I would count my divergence. Here we go:

1. For gun rights
2. Against death penalty
3. For fiscal responsibility
4. For environment, within reason
5. For free markets
6. For abortion rights
7. For marriage rights (whoever wants to marry can)
8. For free trade
10. For health reform -- willing to go as far as something like Switzerland has


What he said.
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Eric Knauer
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MWChapel wrote:

2. Death Penalty. As I stated before, I do believe in capitol punishment. There are crimes just so vile that it goes beyond rehabilitation. Of course only when used quickly and accurately, which some says hardy ever matches.

How about hard labor for life instead of the death penalty? I do agree in principle that someone forfeits their own life when they take another's but since the death penalty is irreversible, it’s impossible to correct if mistakes are made with wrongful convictions.
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eknauer wrote:

How about hard labor for life instead of the death penalty?


I'd rather die.
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MWChapel wrote:
What areas do you diverge in?

That depends. I try to base my political views, or any views that affect others, on evidence, so my views shift based on what we know. I try not to start sentences related to the welfare of others or society at large with "I think" or "I believe".

Some (mostly conservatives, I'm guessing, which I guess makes me "liberal") will say "what about cases where evidence is lacking", to which I say: there's usually a lot more evidence than is generally admitted to the political process.
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MWChapel wrote:
eknauer wrote:

How about hard labor for life instead of the death penalty?


I'd rather die.


Exactly- the punishment is just as harsh if not more but if you were wrongfully convicted, you're not dead and have a chance to get restitution. What could be worse than putting to death an innocent person?
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MWChapel wrote:
Since DW likes to harp on generalizations of what is a Liberal and what is a Conservative, I thought, against the stereotypical Liberal and Conservative(American versions please). What areas do you diverge in?


You're taking steps in the right direction. Soon, you will become enlightened and stop using labels altogether.
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eknauer wrote:
What could be worse than putting to death an innocent person?


Nothing. Would never want to use capitol punishment on an innocent person. Never stated otherwise. If there were "any" doubt, then capitol punishment must not be used.
 
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quozl wrote:


You're taking steps in the right direction. Soon, you will become enlightened and stop using labels altogether.


I will as soon as politicians stop voting the party line. Until then there is one type of Conservative, and one type of Liberal. You either have to accept the "whole" agenda of one party or the "whole" agenda of another in today's government. Not that I "like" that, but that is the reality.
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MWChapel wrote:
eknauer wrote:
What could be worse than putting to death an innocent person?


Nothing. Would never want to use capitol punishment on an innocent person. Never stated otherwise. If there were "any" doubt, then capitol punishment must not be used.

Since humans are inherently fallible, there will always be uncertainty even when a jury thinks they have made the correct decision. The problem with the death penalty is that it's permanent and impossible to remedy when mistakes are made, and mistakes will always be made even with the best intentions.

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eknauer wrote:

Since humans are inherently fallible, there will always be uncertainty even when a jury thinks they have made the correct decision. The problem with the death penalty is that it's permanent and impossible to remedy when mistakes are made, and mistakes will always be made even with the best intentions.



Of course. Those same mistakes can put a man into prison for life of hard labor as well, which may or may not ever be rectified. So are we to just put away the process all together, or just capitol punishment? Is being put to death by mistake "worse" than put in prison for life. Some may feel that B is worse than A. So should we take prison and the death penalty off the table equally? Or are you just going to argue scales here?
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In fact, one could put together a decent argument that as an innocent you are better off being sentenced to death rather than life. The capital cases have much more scrutiny and review than life sentences. There's always time to take care of the life terms, so the urgency isn't as great.
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eknauer wrote:
MWChapel wrote:

2. Death Penalty. As I stated before, I do believe in capitol punishment. There are crimes just so vile that it goes beyond rehabilitation. Of course only when used quickly and accurately, which some says hardy ever matches.

How about hard labor for life instead of the death penalty? I do agree in principle that someone forfeits their own life when they take another's but since the death penalty is irreversible, it’s impossible to correct if mistakes are made with wrongful convictions.


I think that prison should be hard labor for the duration of your sentence, mixed in with mandatory training in some set of skills that will make re-entering society a little easier. The hard labor would probably serve as more of a deterrent then some of the current prison life and the retraining would improve rehabilitation.
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I'm pro-free trade; it's not out of an unabashed love for markets, but more a simple recognition of the fact that, like the buying and selling of drugs, international trade is going to happen anyway so the best option is probably regulating it and collecting revenue, and addressing the problems it creates as they arise in turn.

Speaking of drugs, I'm more anti-legalization than many liberals, mostly because I can see where that leads and it isn't pretty. I'm not totally anti-legalization, but it would need strict government controls over market delivery systems, which goes against a lot of the "legalize it" crowd.
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I diverge from Liberals/Conservatives in that I don't believe they exist. I believe that a lot of people think they fall into one of these two camps. I also think those people are easily frightened dingbats.
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MWChapel wrote:
eknauer wrote:

Since humans are inherently fallible, there will always be uncertainty even when a jury thinks they have made the correct decision. The problem with the death penalty is that it's permanent and impossible to remedy when mistakes are made, and mistakes will always be made even with the best intentions.



Of course. Those same mistakes can put a man into prison for life of hard labor as well, which may or may not ever be rectified. So are we to just put away the process all together, or just capitol punishment? Is being put to death by mistake "worse" than put in prison for life. Some may feel that B is worse than A. So should we take prison and the death penalty off the table equally? Or are you just going to argue scales here?


If someone is sentenced to hard labor for killing someone and two years down the road evidence materializes that exonerates him, restitution can occur to try to make that person whole again. How much required is where the monetary scale may exist, but there is no scale at all if the person is gone. I just don’t see how the benefits of capital punishment outweigh the costs when it goes wrong considering there are equal if not harsher punishments available plus there is a chance of restitution if the system malfunctions, and you agreed, nothing is worse.
 
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SpaceGhost wrote:
eknauer wrote:
MWChapel wrote:

2. Death Penalty. As I stated before, I do believe in capitol punishment. There are crimes just so vile that it goes beyond rehabilitation. Of course only when used quickly and accurately, which some says hardy ever matches.

How about hard labor for life instead of the death penalty? I do agree in principle that someone forfeits their own life when they take another's but since the death penalty is irreversible, it’s impossible to correct if mistakes are made with wrongful convictions.


I think that prison should be hard labor for the duration of your sentence, mixed in with mandatory training in some set of skills that will make re-entering society a little easier. The hard labor would probably serve as more of a deterrent then some of the current prison life and the retraining would improve rehabilitation.


Well, I think we are talking about someone who committed a crime serious enough to be ineligible for parole.
 
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quozl wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
Since DW likes to harp on generalizations of what is a Liberal and what is a Conservative, I thought, against the stereotypical Liberal and Conservative(American versions please). What areas do you diverge in?


You're taking steps in the right direction. Soon, you will become enlightened and stop using labels altogether.
But labels are necessary. We can't communicate if we don't use labels. On the other hand, we need to question and examine the labels so that we can make sure we are really communicating.
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Where do I fit?
For death penalty. I actually like the idea of corporal punishment and/or public ridicule punishments being used more.

Against income tax. I'd prefer to see consumption only tax.

I'd like to see welfare converted to a completely cashless system. Here's your bed, here's where you eat and here are your chores. With the latter leaving enough time for education and/or job hunting. (There will be no non-educational television available. Maybe some movies for special occasions.) Basic medical service available.

Pare down government services to the bare minimum. Army and police force. Probably administration of roads and other tranportation modes, but completely paid for by use taxes. This would include issuing driver's licenses to use the roads.

Oversight (but minimal) on education.

Federal government has no input or recognition of family structure. I am not sure states need to be involved other than ensuring parents are financially responsible for their kids.

Keep the government out of the market. If you riskily invest, prepare to lose your shirt. However, contracts would be enforced. Bankruptcy would necessitate using the welfare system described above at least temporarily (no house or car left.)

I'd prefer to see independent "licensing" boards for professionals. If you want to go to an unrecognized doctor, lawyer or plumber, go ahead, but caveat emptor.

I"d prefer to allow localities to decide on abortion. Take it the hell off the national stage. Ditto for drug use,

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MWChapel wrote:
quozl wrote:


You're taking steps in the right direction. Soon, you will become enlightened and stop using labels altogether.


I will as soon as politicians stop voting the party line. Until then there is one type of Conservative, and one type of Liberal. You either have to accept the "whole" agenda of one party or the "whole" agenda of another in today's government. Not that I "like" that, but that is the reality.
I don't think this is any more fair than Jon's contention. People routinely vote against their party. It is not quite as partisan as you make it out to be. We probably do agree that there is too much partisan voting however.
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Wrayman wrote:
quozl wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
Since DW likes to harp on generalizations of what is a Liberal and what is a Conservative, I thought, against the stereotypical Liberal and Conservative(American versions please). What areas do you diverge in?


You're taking steps in the right direction. Soon, you will become enlightened and stop using labels altogether.
But labels are necessary. We can't communicate if we don't use labels. On the other hand, we need to question and examine the labels so that we can make sure we are really communicating.


I suggest questioning and examining the people instead of the labels.

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qzhdad wrote:
Where do I fit?
For death penalty. I actually like the idea of corporal punishment and/or public ridicule punishments being used more.

Against income tax. I'd prefer to see consumption only tax.

I'd like to see welfare converted to a completely cashless system. Here's your bed, here's where you eat and here are your chores. With the latter leaving enough time for education and/or job hunting. (There will be no non-educational television available. Maybe some movies for special occasions.) Basic medical service available.

Pare down government services to the bare minimum. Army and police force. Probably administration of roads and other tranportation modes, but completely paid for by use taxes. This would include issuing driver's licenses to use the roads.

Oversight (but minimal) on education.

Federal government has no input or recognition of family structure. I am not sure states need to be involved other than ensuring parents are financially responsible for their kids.

Keep the government out of the market. If you riskily invest, prepare to lose your shirt. However, contracts would be enforced. Bankruptcy would necessitate using the welfare system described above at least temporarily (no house or car left.)

I'd prefer to see independent "licensing" boards for professionals. If you want to go to an unrecognized doctor, lawyer or plumber, go ahead, but caveat emptor.

I"d prefer to allow localities to decide on abortion. Take it the hell off the national stage. Ditto for drug use,



I am for the exact opposite
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le_cygne wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
Interesting -- I don't really know which party I would belong to and how I would count my divergence. Here we go:

1. For gun rights
2. Against death penalty
3. For fiscal responsibility
4. For environment, within reason
5. For free markets
6. For abortion rights
7. For marriage rights (whoever wants to marry can)
8. For free trade
10. For health reform -- willing to go as far as something like Switzerland has


What he said.

What they said.

Plus, immediate armistice in the drug war.
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qzhdad wrote:
Where do I fit?

I'd prefer to see independent "licensing" boards for professionals. If you want to go to an unrecognized doctor, lawyer or plumber, go ahead, but caveat emptor.


Well that is just crazy, and quite reckless.

You would prefer your bridges to be engineered by 'bridge enthusiasts', and your buildings designed by 'skyscraper hobbyists'?

I'm interested in your take on consumption tax, though.
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