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Subject: Wargame or Not-A-Wargame? rss

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Hunga Dunga
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Wargame or Not-A-Wargame?
  Wargame Not-A-Wargame
Chess
Go
Battleship
Risk
Axis and Allies
Attack!
Twilight Struggle
Small World
Vinci
Friedrich
Memoir '44
Command and Colors: Ancients
Battle Lore
Diplomacy
A Game of Thrones
      199 answers
Poll created by Hungadunga

Please add polls for other games that you think might be open to debate.
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Ken Feldman
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More games to consider.
Wargame or not a wargame?
  Wargame Not-A-Wargame Vote Count
Aliens 23.6% (17) 76.4% (55) 72
Awful Green Things from Outer Space 23.2% (19) 76.8% (63) 82
Azhanti High Lightning 43.9% (29) 56.1% (37) 66
Bug Hunter:Sniper Companion Game 3 44.1% (30) 55.9% (38) 68
Federation Commander: Klingon Border 80.2% (69) 19.8% (17) 86
Space Hulk 40.4% (38) 59.6% (56) 94
Star Fleet Battles 86.1% (87) 13.9% (14) 101
Starship Troopers 80.2% (81) 19.8% (20) 101
Total Voters 115
This poll is now closed.   115 answers
Poll created by Kenfeldman
Closes: Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:00 am
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oystein eker
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Space Hulk 3 definition is Fighting at BGG

Fighting games are those that encourage players to engage game characters in close quarter battles and hand-to-hand combat.

Fighting games differ from Wargames in that the combat in Wargames exists as one part of a large-scale military simulation, while in Fighting games the focus is on the particular combat scenarios.


While Tide of Iron is registered as a wargame (BGG) definition

A wargame is a game that depicts a military action. Wargames cover a wide range of topics, from ancient times to the present or even the future, and can cover everything from actions between small units on a very small board to a world war on large maps that depict the entire globe - or very large maps depicting one battle at a very fine level of detail. Although most wargames are based on historical battles or wars, there are wargames based on fantasy or science fiction,
....................

I cannot see why TiO is defined as a wargame - and Space Hulk not. (Or vice versa)

?

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Dave Nellis
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I want to talk to the people who think Vinci *IS* a wargame but Smallworld *ISN'T*.

To quote Barney Frank, "What planet are you living on?" ;)
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Dave Nellis
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eker wrote:
Space Hulk 3 definition is Fighting at BGG

Fighting games are those that encourage players to engage game characters in close quarter battles and hand-to-hand combat.

Fighting games differ from Wargames in that the combat in Wargames exists as one part of a large-scale military simulation, while in Fighting games the focus is on the particular combat scenarios.


A fighting game seems similar to a 'tactical' wargame. My money is on the fact fighting games are a small category, and not a lot of thought got put into that definition.
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p55carroll
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And if you're old enough to remember--pause a moment and ask yourself how Jim Dunnigan, Don Greenwood, or John Q. Wargamer would've answered these polls in 1973, if all the games in question had been available then.

I may be wrong, but I seem to remember a time when we all knew a wargame when we saw one.

Then again, I didn't kick the Risk and Go players out of my wargaming club in 1973. I just shrugged and told myself those games were on the fringes of wargaming. I even joined in and played games of Diplomacy and Origins of World War II.
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Jason Fritz
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I wouldn't count "fighting" games like Space Hulk, Tannhauser, or Frag! as wargames, or even fringe wargames.
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Darrell Hanning
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eker wrote:
I cannot see why TiO is defined as a wargame - and Space Hulk not. (Or vice versa)

?


There are categorizations on BGG that do not make much sense. This is one of them.

I keep my litmus test for "wargame" very simple:

A wargame is any game the primary focus of which is organized, armed conflict between two or more factions.

That is, a game covering the National Guard shooting protestors is not a wargame, as not both sides are armed. A game covering the political confrontation between two superpowers, wherein armed conflict plays second fiddle, is not a wargame. However, M'44 is a wargame, as it pretty clearly has a primary focus of armed conflict between the Axis and the Allies, albeit at a highly-abstracted level.

Under this definition, Space Hulk would be a wargame, provided the GeneStealers are considered "organized".

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Kent Reuber
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My two cents 1db1db:

I have the same feeling about the "wargame vs non-wargame" as I do with the "game vs simulation" debate. To me "wargame" and "simulations" aren't yes/no quantities, but rather a continuum. So, when we debate, for example, whether a game is "just a game" or a "simulation", we're really debating our own thresholds--that is, what level of detail we believe constitutes classifying the game in one bin or the other.
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Darrell Hanning
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Patrick Carroll wrote:
And if you're old enough to remember--pause a moment and ask yourself how Jim Dunnigan, Don Greenwood, or John Q. Wargamer would've answered these polls in 1973, if all the games in question had been available then.

I may be wrong, but I seem to remember a time when we all knew a wargame when we saw one.

Then again, I didn't kick the Risk and Go players out of my wargaming club in 1973. I just shrugged and told myself those games were on the fringes of wargaming. I even joined in and played games of Diplomacy and Origins of World War II.


To be honest, I don't think Jim Dunnigan ever gave a rip what people did or did not categorize as a "wargame".

He would, however, argue to the death the appropriateness of calling The Plot to Assassinate Hitler a "conflict simulation".
 
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Mircea Pauca
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Wargame or Not-a-wargame 3
  Wargame Not-a-wargame
Wallenstein
Shogun
Pirates of the Spanish Main
Blackbeard
The Creature that Ate Sheboygan
Smokejumpers
Civilization
      83 answers
Poll created by ROMagister
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p55carroll
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DarrellKH wrote:

To be honest, I don't think Jim Dunnigan ever gave a rip what people did or did not categorize as a "wargame".

He would, however, argue to the death the appropriateness of calling The Plot to Assassinate Hitler a "conflict simulation".


That and Up Against The Wall, Motherf*****!.
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Hunga Dunga
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Interesting data so far....

Axis and Allies is more of a wargame than Twilight Struggle, but TS is more of a wargame than Risk.

Vinci is more of a wargame than Small World.

C&C:A is a real wargame, M'44 is a wargame, and BL is less of a wargame (but more of a wargame than TS).

Battleship is more of a wargame than Go.
 
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DarrellKH wrote:
Under this definition, Space Hulk would be a wargame, provided the GeneStealers are considered "organized".


Well...The Genestealers DO have a Brood Lord.

Unit: Brood.

Commander: Brood Lord.

laugh
 
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Patrick Carroll wrote:
And if you're old enough to remember--pause a moment and ask yourself how Jim Dunnigan, Don Greenwood, or John Q. Wargamer would've answered these polls in 1973, if all the games in question had been available then.

I may be wrong, but I seem to remember a time when we all knew a wargame when we saw one.

Then again, I didn't kick the Risk and Go players out of my wargaming club in 1973. I just shrugged and told myself those games were on the fringes of wargaming. I even joined in and played games of Diplomacy and Origins of World War II.


Boy, the way Glenn Miller played
Songs that made the Hit Parade
Guys like us, we had it made
Those were the days...


Seriously, though, I completely agree with you.
 
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Ben Delp
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I have to say I'm a little surprised by the Diplomacy results. True, the armies and navies don't have unique attack/defense/movement values, and everyone (save Russia) starts on more or less equal footing, and you get serious ahistorical results. But at least on the last count, it's no worse than A&A (Japan, I'm looking at you). Also, I would've thought that being steeped in the old AH tradition would have gone a long way. Grandfathered in, so to speak.
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p55carroll
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delp1871 wrote:
I have to say I'm a little surprised by the Diplomacy results. True, the armies and navies don't have unique attack/defense/movement values, and everyone (save Russia) starts on more or less equal footing, and you get serious ahistorical results. But at least on the last count, it's no worse than A&A (Japan, I'm looking at you). Also, I would've thought that being steeped in the old AH tradition would have gone a long way. Grandfathered in, so to speak.


I suspect some people are like me: they started out thinking Diplomacy looked like a wargame (like Risk, but with fleets as well as armies, and no dice or cards), and partway into their first game they were shocked to realize they were involved in something way different than what they expected.

That experience can leave one thinking, "It may have a map and military units, but whatever it is, it ain't no wargame."
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Andy Linman
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I don't consider Diplomacy a wargame because the armed conflict is definitely secondary to trying to persuade your opponents to do what you want, and sometimes choosing the right moment to betray them. To me a wargame should put the armed conflict aspect as primary. Granted, this definition may exclude Twilight Struggle or even my favorite, Here I Stand, but there it is anyway.

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." -- R. W. Emerson.
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Another way to slice this data...

If a real wargame requires minimum 90% of the vote, there is only one real wargame in this list, and that's C&C:A.

If a real wargame requires minimum 80% of the vote, there are only three wargames on this list: C&C:A, Memoir'44, and A&A.

If a real wargame requires minimum 75% of the vote, there are only five wargames on this list: C&C:A, Memoir'44, A&A, BL, and Attack!
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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Varus wrote:
I don't consider Diplomacy a wargame because the armed conflict is definitely secondary to trying to persuade your opponents to do what you want, and sometimes choosing the right moment to betray them. To me a wargame should put the armed conflict aspect as primary. Granted, this definition may exclude Twilight Struggle or even my favorite, Here I Stand, but there it is anyway.

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." -- R. W. Emerson.


I think what you describe is more a characteristic of having 7 players than it is of the 'combat system' (such as it is) in Diplomacy. Try playing Diplomacy 3 player to see what I mean.
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Hungadunga wrote:
Interesting data so far....

Battleship is more of a wargame than Go.


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While I consider Space Hulk a wargame, I concede that it is debatable. But Azhanti High Lightning and Bughunter: Sniper ARE wargames. So, tactical man-to-man combat games in a science-fiction setting aren't wargames? Suppose I play Firepower or Close Assault or Soldiers: Man-to-Man Combat in World War II and call one side the "Terrans" and the other side "Those reptilian aliens from Turtledove's Worldwar series" and decide they're using lasers and gauss rifles? Are they now not wargames?

(Should the voting on these two games change, disregard this rant. But Space Hulk is still a wargame)

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milgate wrote:
...Suppose I play Firepower or Close Assault or Soldiers: Man-to-Man Combat in World War II and call one side the "Terrans" and the other side "Those reptilian aliens from Turtledove's Worldwar series" ....


Just be careful how you name your soldiers on your roster sheet, or you risk having your grognard credentials revoked.
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deadkenny wrote:
I think what you describe is more a characteristic of having 7 players than it is of the 'combat system' (such as it is) in Diplomacy. Try playing Diplomacy 3 player to see what I mean.

The other way to think about it is to take any 2-player wargame and divide the troops into 6 groups, each with specific victory conditions that don't detract from the overall 2-player VCs.

I think you'll all of a sudden see a lot of negotiations for troop transfers, supplies, etc....
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My litmus test:

Try to teach or offer to play the game with someone. If they say:

"Oh, I'm really not into war games." It's a wargame.

"Oh, I'm not really into Dungeons & Dragons." It's an RPG.

"Is it like...Monopoly?" It's neither.

If their eyes glaze: It's whatever you say it is!
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