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Subject: Re-print - any chance we'll finally get the re-design? rss

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Pasta Batman
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RGG is still listing December for the re-print. Nobody has it in stock. Any chance RGG will finally reprint this with the beautiful graphics seen in the Dutch/French/Spanish/(others?) shown in the image gallery?
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Blue Fox
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I hope so, I have the Italian version, but its hard to teach new players in Italian. I will say though its a beautiful edition.
 
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Maarten D. de Jong
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As far as I know the artwork of the QWG-edition is specifically coupled to that edition. If RGG is reprinting, they will reprint the alea-edition. So no, you don't get the nice graphics.
 
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Pasta Batman
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cymric wrote:
As far as I know the artwork of the QWG-edition is specifically coupled to that edition. If RGG is reprinting, they will reprint the alea-edition. So no, you don't get the nice graphics.

That's a shame. Love the game, but the artwork is just drab and boring, and the reliance on text is excessive. I would happily buy a another copy if the artwork was upgraded.
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Corin A. Friesen
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pastabatman wrote:
cymric wrote:
As far as I know the artwork of the QWG-edition is specifically coupled to that edition. If RGG is reprinting, they will reprint the alea-edition. So no, you don't get the nice graphics.

That's a shame. Love the game, but the artwork is just drab and boring, and the reliance on text is excessive. I would happily buy a another copy if the artwork was upgraded.

I love the Alea artwork by Franz Vohwinkel. Really fits the period of the game. Feels like you are really planning a city from the point of view of the architect and mayor of the city. The subtle and light artwork gives the game a strange character that I adore.

That being said, QWG's artwork isn't bad either. I guess I still prefer the Alea edition.
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Chris Johnson
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The QWG edition is gorgeous, but it's not really very functional.

The various design issues with the QWG edition slow the game down noticeably compared to the Alea/RGG edition.

I'm glad I own a copy, but you won't catch me playing it when an Alea/RGG edition is available.

Be careful what you wish for, you might get it... ;)
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Pasta Batman
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I haven't seen a review of the QWG version, so not aware of any design issues - is there a write up somewhere?

I do like QWG's move to more graphical profession cards. Compare this:

to this:

Having a graphic of the landscape/building/freedom combo seems like it would make it easier to correlate synergy when choosing cards.
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pastabatman wrote:

I do like QWG's move to more graphical profession cards.

Having a graphic of the landscape/building/freedom combo seems like it would make it easier to correlate synergy when choosing cards.


oooooohhhhhhh. I like that a lot better. but I'm guessing the language dependency on all of the bonus cards get a little tiresome.
 
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Chris Johnson
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pastabatman wrote:
I haven't seen a review of the QWG version, so not aware of any design issues - is there a write up somewhere?

I do like QWG's move to more graphical profession cards. Compare this:

to this:

Having a graphic of the landscape/building/freedom combo seems like it would make it easier to correlate synergy when choosing cards.


Yeah. Try actually *playing* with those profession cards.

They *look* better, but they are significantly harder to use/interpret/review in practice. You end up fanning and studying (and then forgetting) your cards way more than with the old ones. The all-text old versions may look worse, but they make game-play much easier and faster.

It is also a significant problem that the freedoms are relatively indistinct.

FWIW, there are perfectly fine paste-ups (except for one noted problem which has yet to be fixed) for the bonus and prestige cards; once the cards are sleeved, just slip the paste-up in.
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fnord23 wrote:

They *look* better, but they are significantly harder to use/interpret/review in practice. You end up fanning and studying (and then forgetting) your cards way more than with the old ones.

The fanning issue I get. But how can pictures of the actual objects require interpretation?
 
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It really is a pity that Princes doesn't quite get the art it deserves--functional yet beautiful. I held off on buying European editions of the game due to the high expense and also the nonfunctional art. You really can't tell what's what in the European editions.
 
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Frank Hussey
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Thanks for the comparison. The new cards do look pretty but I actually prefer the aesthetic of the old cards.

And I completely agree with fnord as to functionality. I read words much faster than I can interpret pictures (the first ten games of Race for the Galaxy were just work for me), but I bow to the goal of language independence.
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Tragik Nate
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Initially I thought the reprint was going to happen last month. However, Jay is saying the reprint will happen in the summer. I forgot to ask him if there was going to be a redesign
 
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Andrew H
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I was about to post a question about whether there was an English edition of the game with the beautiful artwork (as opposed to the original stylish but to me unattractive and language heavyefition). Thankfully this post seems to have answered that.

Has the QWG edition been produced yet?

For all that I have not played with either version I can't understand how the newer art could be harder to use esp for new gamers. It seems to have consistant symbolism and matching artwork. What makes it so hard to use...or is that just an opinion of a few. Do others disagree?
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Andrew H
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pastabatman wrote:
fnord23 wrote:

They *look* better, but they are significantly harder to use/interpret/review in practice. You end up fanning and studying (and then forgetting) your cards way more than with the old ones.

The fanning issue I get. But how can pictures of the actual objects require interpretation?


And how does having to read cards require less fanning than having to look at pictures?
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The QWG edition has been out for years; you should be able to easily find it in the (non-English) language of your choice from an appropriate webstore.

For most people, text is faster and easier to interpret than pictures. (There is a reason there is a well-known tension between cost-saving language-neutral components and ease-of-use from localized languages on components.)

In a game like this, where you are regularly referring to your cards in order to plan your moves and move your plans ahead, those seconds add up. The pictures also make the game more tedious.

In addition, the pictures (*especially* the freedoms) are not particularly intuitive or easy to parse, at least for me (and all of the people I know who've played the QWG edition). Admittedly, some people will find the pictures easier and faster, but I've never met one...

The QWG edition is better than no PoF at all, but given the choice, the RGG edition should be the one most English-speakers choose.

(And I did personally lobby Jay to keep the current graphics at Essen. Thankfully, he agreed with me, in the end.)

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Critical Mass wrote:

And how does having to read cards require less fanning than having to look at pictures?


It doesn't. You're focusing on the wrong issue; I was describing the process. It's the "interpretation" part of the process that takes extra time and effort.

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Steve Duff
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The graphics of the buildings and landscape are far superior to the old text versions. Way easier to use. When I played this with the text cards I spent the whole bloody game looking back and forth mutter "which one is the damn Chapel..."

Yes, they screwed up by putting the big 3 covering up the Freedom pictures. All they needed to do was move it to the side, like this one:


Keeping it the same as they ugly old one will definitely cost him a sale, as I'll never buy this like that.

I may just homebrew this one day.
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fnord23 wrote:
Critical Mass wrote:

And how does having to read cards require less fanning than having to look at pictures?


It doesn't. You're focusing on the wrong issue; I was describing the process. It's the "interpretation" part of the process that takes extra time and effort.


There are 3 unique things pictured on each profession card (landscape, building, freedom). None of these require interpretation, as the exact image of the item in the game is shown. In the context of the game, the actual shape of a library is much more useful than the word 'library'. I can only see that being a problem if you've played the game so much that it hurts to change.
 
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Perhaps you should actually read my previous post:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/4745862#4745862

It's a real issue, experienced by pretty much everyone I've seen that has tried the QWG version.

Jay made the right decision.
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fnord23 wrote:
Perhaps you should actually read my previous post:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/4745862#4745862

It's a real issue, experienced by pretty much everyone I've seen that has tried the QWG version.

Jay made the right decision.

I did, and you haven't substantiated your main criticism ("text is faster and easier to interpret than pictures"). If you were talking about having to interpret symbols instead of pictures, you might have a case. Does the picture of the building on the card not look exactly like the building tile used in the game, and same for the landscape and freedom? There's no symbolism or representing of something else, so why is interpretation necessary?

I'm willing to accept that some or even most may prefer the old style for legitimate reasons, but this particular reason doesn't seem valid.
 
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pastabatman wrote:
I did, and you haven't substantiated your main criticism ("text is faster and easier to interpret than pictures"). If you were talking about having to interpret symbols instead of pictures, you might have a case. Does the picture of the building on the card not look exactly like the building tile used in the game, and same for the landscape and freedom? There's no symbolism or representing of something else, so why is interpretation necessary?


Because you are processing from a visual item to a "text/word" item internally; that takes time and effort, and seems particularly egregious with these cards, for some reason. Again, for the third time:

There is a reason there is a well-known tension between cost-saving language-neutral components and ease-of-use from localized languages on components.

Quote:
I'm willing to accept that some or even most may prefer the old style for legitimate reasons, but this particular reason doesn't seem valid.


So, exactly how many people have to tell you it is, before you believe us? :/
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fnord23 wrote:
pastabatman wrote:
I did, and you haven't substantiated your main criticism ("text is faster and easier to interpret than pictures"). If you were talking about having to interpret symbols instead of pictures, you might have a case. Does the picture of the building on the card not look exactly like the building tile used in the game, and same for the landscape and freedom? There's no symbolism or representing of something else, so why is interpretation necessary?


Because you are processing from a visual item to a "text/word" item internally; that takes time and effort, and seems particularly egregious with these cards, for some reason. Again, for the third time:

There is a reason there is a well-known tension between cost-saving language-neutral components and ease-of-use from localized languages on components.

I'm extremely familiar with this 'well-known tension' you speak of, but it doesn't apply here. Instead of repeating yourself over and over, you might actually read my question (now asked three different ways). What the heck, one last try:

If I wanted someone to hand me a strange looking long tile with a wiggle in it, wouldn't it be faster to show them an exact picture of it instead of asking for a 'theater'? You are claiming it's faster to say 'theater' and for them to then translate that to 'long tile with a wiggle in it', whereas I say, why not simply remove the necessity for translation? This is a whole different situation than, say, Race for the Galaxy, where abstract symbols are used to represent stuff. If you have an actual picture of a thing, that picture is not an abstraction of that thing.

There are ten buildings in PoF. I've played it least a dozen times, but I certainly do not have their names & shapes memorized. When I look at a profession card and see 'theater', I have to look at my mat or at the piles of buildings to see exactly what shape it is. It is easier for me to simply have the shape on the card.

Now, I'm not sure what's going on in your brain, but let me take a guess. You prefer having 'verbal handles' for things, and actually think more 'verbally' or 'textually' than I do. You instinctively name objects, so it's faster for you to have the names handy. And that's fine. I would n't be surprised if you've played this game so much that you are able to associate all ten building names with their shapes without any aid. The translation is already hard-wired in your brain, and that wiring doesn't process pictures very well. Again, just guessing.

fnord23 wrote:
pastabatman wrote:
I'm willing to accept that some or even most may prefer the old style for legitimate reasons, but this particular reason doesn't seem valid.


So, exactly how many people have to tell you it is, before you believe us? :/

I'm not disputing anyone's preference. I do believe you prefer the older art, laugh.
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pastabatman wrote:

I'm extremely familiar with this 'well-known tension' you speak of, but it doesn't apply here.


It does apply here. This is a classic example of it. Your hand-waving doesn't change reality.

Quote:
Instead of repeating yourself over and over, you might actually read my question (now asked three different ways). What the heck, one last try:


I'm repeating myself because you keep asking the same question after it's already been explained to you. Perhaps if you showed you understood what was being said, some progress might be made...

Quote:
If I wanted someone to hand me a strange looking long tile with a wiggle in it, wouldn't it be faster to show them an exact picture of it instead of asking for a 'theater'?


No, not in my experience. That's not how most people's brains work.

Quote:
You are claiming it's faster to say 'theater' and for them to then translate that to 'long tile with a wiggle in it', whereas I say, why not simply remove the necessity for translation?


No one I know does this. You apparently do, but that makes you a tiny minority of PoF players that I've known.

Quote:
If you have an actual picture of a thing, that picture is not an abstraction of that thing.


It actually is, but you clearly don't really understand the cognitive processes involved.

Quote:
There are ten buildings in PoF. I've played it least a dozen times, but I certainly do not have their names & shapes memorized. When I look at a profession card and see 'theater', I have to look at my mat or at the piles of buildings to see exactly what shape it is. It is easier for me to simply have the shape on the card.


Again, you are a tiny minority of PoF players. I've played somewhere north of 50 times, and I don't have them memorized either. The actual shape of the building in relatively unimportant; the potential synergy of a particular building is what matters, and linking that is far easier for most people with a name, not a glyph.

Quote:
Now, I'm not sure what's going on in your brain, but let me take a guess. You prefer having 'verbal handles' for things, and actually think more 'verbally' or 'textually' than I do.


Like most people. And frankly, that's who game design decisions should cater to.

Quote:
You instinctively name objects, so it's faster for you to have the names handy. And that's fine. I would n't be surprised if you've played this game so much that you are able to associate all ten building names with their shapes without any aid. The translation is already hard-wired in your brain, and that wiring doesn't process pictures very well. Again, just guessing.


Again, shape doesn't really matter; it only matters if you are pushing against the limits of your space, which doesn't happen all that much with experienced players. What does matter is synergy.

fnord23 wrote:
So, exactly how many people have to tell you it is, before you believe us? :/
Quote:
I'm not disputing anyone's preference. I do believe you prefer the older art, :laugh:.


You didn't answer my question.

You *are* disputing it. And I'm pretty much done with going in circles with you, as you are clearly not paying attention to what I'm saying, and instead simply applying your own suppositions and and prejudices to what you "believe" I'm saying.
 
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fnord23 wrote:
And I'm pretty much done with going in circles with you, as you are clearly not paying attention to what I'm saying, and instead simply applying your own suppositions and and prejudices to what you "believe" I'm saying.
Right back at ya. I was trying to have an intelligent discourse and exchange of ideas, but I see you're having none of it. Peace.
 
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