Recommend
7 
 Thumb up
 Hide
9 Posts

The Peloponnesian War, 431-404 BC» Forums » Rules

Subject: pile on? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Rob Johnson
United States
St. Cloud
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
With a few tweaks, I always loved this game, flawed as it is/was. I never could stay away from the Persian or Peloponnesian Wars for long. VG's game is still the only PW game I've ever owned or played, though my copy of CoA's EPW should be arriving next week.

One point of the rules we never resolved: Piling-on an Objective Space, ie multiple, opposing Armies/Forces converging on a single citystate to establish or retain control.

Byzantium or Epidamnos were the usual Spaces, of course. Right out of the gate, the Spartans (Spartan Player) would send the largest expedition they could afford, followed by an Athenian Army, followed by Spartan re-inforcements.......

We modded to allow this, resulting in some interesting play..zombie

But what were the original rules on this? We never did find the answer in any of the later errata editions or follow-ups....

Thanks!

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Jensen
United States
Pacific Grove
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Not sure I understand your question. It seems like most marching Armies, especially the larger ones, would be intercepted with a resulting battle which would send one side or the other packing. So the massimve pile-ups you're describing shouldn't occur that often. And these are the Two-Player rules, correct?

I never felt the Epidamnos space was worth fighting for. Other than the first few turns, having enough gold in the treasury was never a problem.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Johnson
United States
St. Cloud
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for the reply, Tom!

The pile-on phenomena occurs this way:

On the Spartan (two-player) turn, they send a large Hoplite expedition to Byzantium to choke off Athens grain and gold- 1500 talents per turn. The Spartans arrive and have to lay siege to the citidel.

The Athenians then send a relief force to Byzantium by sea, carrying Hoplites and cavalry to the Byzantium Objective Space.

The Spartan player inevitably hedges his bets and sends another Army, this time of all Corinthian triremes plus allied troops to the Byzantium Space.

This is a very expensive way to play the game (and an extreme brute-force strategy), but nonetheless happens nearly every time I play. Byzantium in particular is a great strategic prize. 1500 talents per turn. With both Byzantium and Epidamnos under Spartan control the Athenians might just as well surrender, and do!!

The Spartans can brush aside any Land interceptions and continue moving. Pretty much the same for Athenian Navy when intercepted.

Time and time again I and my opponents have gone over the rules trying to find something that forbids "pile-on". Only successful Interceptions developing into Battles stop Armies from converging on a critical Space.

What am I missing, here? Surely the playtesters discovered this?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Jensen
United States
Pacific Grove
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Hrmm, I can't think what you might be missing. These are three year turns and it might be historical to send one army one summer, another the next, etc. There's a fifty-fifty chance that an interception will be successful, resulting in a skirmish. And that skirmish will develop into a full-blown battle if the total SPs of both forces together exceed 8 (land or naval)... which should be most skirmishes from the sound of your epic battle for Byzantium. So, after that battle, one side or the other will be sent Home at its conclusion. Are you sending losing Armies Home after each battle and not keeping them around until the Going Home segment?

Are you including cavalry with each Army and thereby extending possible interceptions into adjacent spaces? [adjacent two spaces with naval] With naval participating, there are three interception die rolls; one for two-away, one for the adjacent space, and one for when an Army enters Byzantium. With three chances to intercept and with large armies, a battle should occur and one side sent Home so that pile-ups don't occur.

I like this game too and find myself pulling it out often. Richard Berg is now working on a Peloponnesian War game in his Ancient World series. The PW is tricky and I don't know if his design will be successful, but I really like his system used for Carthage and the First Punic War. So you might give The Glory That Was Greece a look whenever he gets it done.

The loss of 1500 talents from Byzantium is not too much of a threat, given the spending limits of 600 talents/turn; (unless it's the first turn or two). It's the negation of the Long Walls of Athens rule which really threatens destruction for those plucky Greeks.

I've never played Two-Player but it might be interesting to play until one side or the other actually captures Athens or Sparta. OR... play it historically, a stalemate, and have as the sole victory condition be the domination of Sicily; the first side to capture the majority of cities. Something like that.

3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Johnson
United States
St. Cloud
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The two-player really gets brutal- hence the constant warring over Byzantium and Epidamnos. Sparta cannot capitalize on controlling Byzantium-they can only deny that income the Athenians use to pay their rather pricey rowers...ie their Naval power. It hurts, I can tell you!!

Epidamnos control, however, the Spartans can use to build and fund their own Naval strength out of Gythium.

The two-player really is an entirely different game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Jensen
United States
Pacific Grove
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I never build ships for Sparta; Athens has too big of an advantage so I usually conceed naval control and just fight on land where the die modifiers are in Sparta's favor.

Somewhere around here, in another file, I've listed my proxy opponents for Sparta and Athens; i.e. an AI system that really works. If you ever want to play "me" in Two-Player, just learn that system and see if you can beat "me" as Athens. I've never done it myself.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Johnson
United States
St. Cloud
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That sounds too interesting to pass up!

I don't consider myself any Peloponnesian Rommel or anything- in fact I learn more by losing than winning.

Tell me more about this system you've got!

Did you develope it for lack of opponents, or something else?

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Jensen
United States
Pacific Grove
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
It's about three years old now so it's been pushed back onto page 3; it's called Solitaire PPW. I don't think many people have tried it because, on the surface, it may appear more complex than Mark Herman's system. But once you understand it, it flows easily. It's the only way I play anymore so I've gotten my money's worth from the game. In fact, with all the chatter about it, I think I'll set it up tonight and try to defeat the mighty Delian League with my noble Spartans. It's a good excuse to get back into this fine game. "Sparta! once again into the breaches!"
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martí Cabré

Terrassa
Catalonia, Spain
msg tools
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Barcelona_(1713–14)
badge
https://spanishpolice.github.io
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I cannot find your rules file in the files section.

Could you upload it again? It sounds interesting.

Thanks.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.