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Subject: Nationalism vs. Patriotism rss

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True Blue Jon
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What's the difference?
 
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Justin Rio
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According to my international politics class back in college(1995 or there abouts), "nationalism" is a pride in the country you come from, both culturally and politically, and views things with an open mind, doesn't take things personally. "Patriotism" on the other hand is a pride in your country & culture that puts it above reproach.
Nationalism: I want the best for my country, and that means critiqueing it.
Patriotism: My nation, right or wrong.
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True Blue Jon
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Interesting. I'm gong to copy Mirriam Webster's definitions here so we don't get sidetracked with definitions.

Patriotism: love for or devotion to one's country

Nationalism: loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially: a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups

I'm more interested in discussing the goods and bads of nationalism and patriotism, however. Is one good and the other bad? Are both good or are both bad? Why?
 
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Paul DeStefano
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Nations and countries are not necessarily the same thing.

I'm sure the Cherokee are still looking for their country.
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True Blue Jon
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Shushnik wrote:
No, patriotism or nationalism aren't inherently "bad". Carring them beyond logic and reason and holding them as an unreprochable standard is where the "bad" part exibits itself.


Can you give examples of "good"?
 
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quozl wrote:
Shushnik wrote:
No, patriotism or nationalism aren't inherently "bad". Carring them beyond logic and reason and holding them as an unreprochable standard is where the "bad" part exibits itself.


Can you give examples of "good"?


Don't do it Rich! It's the typical "quozl trap". He gets you to tell him about your views while never once revealing his. Then, he makes fun of them and drives you crazy with the same questions asked over and over but worded differently each time.
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True Blue Jon
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DWTripp wrote:
quozl wrote:
Shushnik wrote:
No, patriotism or nationalism aren't inherently "bad". Carring them beyond logic and reason and holding them as an unreprochable standard is where the "bad" part exibits itself.


Can you give examples of "good"?


Don't do it Rich! It's the typical "quozl trap". He gets you to tell him about your views while never once revealing his. Then, he makes fun of them and drives you crazy with the same questions asked over and over but worded differently each time.


Ah ha! DW fell into my trap! Now I reveal my views and he has to reveal his!

I think nationalism is all bad. There is nothing good about it at all.

Patriotism can be good if "country" is defined as the group of people you live with and is not exclusive to the nation you reside in or were born in. Otherwise, it's bad.

Your turn, DW!
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quozl wrote:


Ah ha! DW fell into my trap! Now I reveal my views and he has to reveal his!

I think nationalism is all bad. There is nothing good about it at all.

Patriotism can be good if "country" is defined as the group of people you live with and is not exclusive to the nation you reside in or were born in. Otherwise, it's bad.

Your turn, DW!


Interesting. Perhaps if you give us an overview of what you mean by "good" and "bad" then I can begin to understand your position.
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True Blue Jon
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DWTripp wrote:
Interesting. Perhaps if you give us an overview of what you mean by "good" and "bad" then I can begin to understand your position.


Crap! You know I can't define good or bad without falling back on God and the Bible! Does this mean you won't reveal your views?
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I think that nations should be just an administrative convenience like states, regions, Landers etc.

I'm curious as to what RSP libertarians think of nationalism.
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quozl wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
Interesting. Perhaps if you give us an overview of what you mean by "good" and "bad" then I can begin to understand your position.


Crap! You know I can't define good or bad without falling back on God and the Bible! Does this mean you won't reveal your views?


Exactly. That was the plan... to turn this thread into another boring discussion of theology so I could feel okay about totally ignoring it.

But... I'm with Rich. Extremes tend to be bad except for extreme sports and perhaps extreme sex (but at my age, only after checking with my physician). Good and bad aren't inherent in either of the concepts until you add enough people for extremes to formulate around mob mentality.
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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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Alright! I want everyone to stop changing their avatars, damn it! I con't care what month it is!! angryangryangryangryangry
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Ken
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quozl wrote:
Patriotism can be good if "country" is defined as the group of people you live with


That's a definition that fails to defines anything. I could limit that to my house or expand it to include the entire world. Or just limit it to people sitting in my chair in front of my monitor for my computer.

Patriotism is only bad when it becomes an excuse/dodge/reason for things without real reasons to back it up. There's nothing wrong with being proud of where you live, so long as that pride doesn't transform to hubris. Then it's nationalism, which tends to have a "country do or die" or "lebensraum" flavor to it.

I'm proud of my country for many reasons. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as that pride doesn't become a reason to overlook/forget/ignore the problems that do exist/our history/etc..
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True Blue Jon
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ejmowrer wrote:
Alright! I want everyone to stop changing their avatars, damn it! I con't care what month it is!! angryangryangryangryangry


I sympathize with you. However, I think this avatar change may be permanent. I like it.
 
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True Blue Jon
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perfalbion wrote:
quozl wrote:
Patriotism can be good if "country" is defined as the group of people you live with


That's a definition that fails to defines anything. I could limit that to my house or expand it to include the entire world. Or just limit it to people sitting in my chair in front of my monitor for my computer.


You're wrong. A fluid definition is still a definition and it's a definition I happen to prefer.
 
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I'd file "respect for the military" in the "bad".
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Ken
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quozl wrote:
You're wrong. A fluid definition is still a definition and it's a definition I happen to prefer.


Hell, it's your thread so do what you like. Without a common definition, the conversation's at least somewhat pointless. I feel very patriotic about my relationship with the chipmunk that's taken up residence in the yard just outside of my window.
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True Blue Jon
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perfalbion wrote:
Without a common definition, the conversation's at least somewhat pointless.


Again, I disagree. I'm not saying we shouldn't have a common definition. I think we should. However, I also think that common definition should be fluid.

P.S. If you consider a chipmunk a person and feel patriotic towards that chipmunk, that tells me a lot about you and how you feel about chipmunks and patriotism.
 
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Shushnik wrote:
AT 22 wrote:
I'd file "respect for the military" in the "bad".


And I'd file "blanket rules about group X" under the "narrow-minded".


So it applies to you equally, right?
But whatever, the military is not a "group", and not respecting it is not a "blanket rule".
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Ken
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quozl wrote:
However, I also think that common definition should be fluid.


Whatever. How does your definition actually define anything? It fails to put any boundaries around "country," for purposes of having a discussion. I'm not a citizen of North America, I'm a citizen of the US which happens to be a nation in the N. American continent.

Quote:
P.S. If you consider a chipmunk a person and feel patriotic towards that chipmunk, that tells me a lot about you and how you feel about chipmunks and patriotism.


Of all people, I'd have thought you'd appreciate a fairly silly argument ad absurdium.
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True Blue Jon
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perfalbion wrote:
quozl wrote:
However, I also think that common definition should be fluid.


Whatever. How does your definition actually define anything? It fails to put any boundaries around "country," for purposes of having a discussion. I'm not a citizen of North America, I'm a citizen of the US which happens to be a nation in the N. American continent.


Do you know what country the Cherokee love? Hint: it's not a nation
 
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Ken
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quozl wrote:
Do you know what country the Cherokee love? Hint: it's not a nation


Then is it relevant to the conversation?
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perfalbion wrote:
quozl wrote:
Do you know what country the Cherokee love? Hint: it's not a nation


Then is it relevant to the conversation?


YES! It is very relevant to patriotism. I can't think of anything more relevant.
 
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I'm with Tripp, let's talk about extreme sex instead..
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DCAnderson wrote:
verandi wrote:
I'm with Tripp, let's talk about extreme sex instead..


How would you define it as "extreme"?

Would it mean you'd have to wear knee pads and a helmet?


New thread, guys.
 
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