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Conflict of Heroes: Storms of Steel! – Kursk 1943» Forums » General

Subject: Paradise Lost; or The Top Turret Gunner Doesn't Answer rss

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Shawn Woods
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Why exactly do you find it feels like a beta game? And what about it cannot keep up with itself? You highlight several passages in your post, however you are very vague with respect to your supporting reasons. You show that Uwe's intention was to not get gamers lost in more rules. However, you do not say why you think the rules have not been fine-tuned. Please elaborate.
 
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Andrew Saunders
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baconcow wrote:
Why exactly do you find it feels like a beta game? And what about it cannot keep up with itself? You highlight several passages in your post, however you are very vague with respect to your supporting reasons. You show that Uwe's intention was to not get gamers lost in more rules. However, you do not say why you think the rules have not been fine-tuned. Please elaborate.


I think I understand what he is trying to say. He's just a bit economical saying it.

In essence I believe he is saying AtB was released in 2007 or 08 and with it's own set of rules and now a short while later SoS is released with quite a few changes and revised counters.

I think that is what he's saying
 
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James
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As an ASL player I love COH because I am able to play it with someone who is not interested in lots of rules. The scenarios are done in such a way as to introduce the game slowly and yet if you wish you may introduce other more advanced rules later. I plan on buying future games from this series as long as I don't have to buy another version of a game I already own.The rules are very comprehensive, the components are top notch, the game is easy to learn and it's even playable online using Vassal or Zun Tzu.
 
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kaufschtick wrote:
In closing, I just want to say for the record that I'm not on here trying to knock CoH. I'm just disappointed to have another beta game unable to keep up with itself.

Good Luck Uwe!


Creating new threads saying the same thing over and over again certainly doesn't help one believe that you are not trying to knock CoH.

If you've lost your faith of the game system and feel that you've bought a beta version then sell it to someone else who thinks that it's a perfectly good game {they are not few anyway} and be done with it. Noone will try to stop you.

You are entitled to your opinion and you can certainly post it here but not over and over again and in different posts. There is absolutely no need to create a new thread every single time that something bothers you about CoH because as I see it all of your problems converge on the same thing repeated over and over: you don't like that the game rules have changed.
Why is that is beyond me because I applaud any designer efforts to improve already good games but I really don't like reading repeated posts of the same camouflaged subject of "original CoH is really a beta version and all who bought the game were essentially playtesters for the new rules". Before there were new rules was the game broken? Didn't it play perfectly? Didn't you enjoy it? If there is anything that can improve on that why shouldn't we accept it as an improvement?

As a final word, if you have not already decided to not play this game anymore {"Good Luck Uwe!" and all that...}, you can always play with the old ruleset and pretend the new one never happened. meeple

Just my thoughts after reading this thread...
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Mark Mitchell
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That's rich coming from someone with a Tide of Iron microbadge. Tide of Iron the ultimate Beta scenario game. As about as balanced as a jelly on a rollercoaster.
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Bill Gates
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Are you the guy who wrote the article in The General that is referenced in the title of this thread?
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Romian Tuesta-Vilca
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kaufschtick wrote:
Wittmann222 wrote:
I think I understand what he is trying to say. He's just a bit economical saying it.

In essence I believe he is saying AtB was released in 2007 or 08 and with it's own set of rules and now a short while later SoS is released with quite a few changes and revised counters.

I think that is what he's saying


Yeah, that's pretty much it. I was really excited over this game, this time last year.

I guess a lot of CoH fans consider my views as trying to rain on their parade, but I'm just calling it the way I see it.

Reading about planned replacement counters, to my way of thinking, means that they didn't do a very good job in designing the game I paid $80.00 USD for, just a short year ago.

I have never thrown away any of the hundreds of wargames I've owned in my life. I take them down to my FLAGS, where I trade them in for a few bucks, and they resell them. AtB now has OOB counters and rules that aren't compatible (up to date) with the CoH system any longer, and it was the initial game in the series.

My thought is that any fan of the CoH system will now want to start with SoS as the base game, and that makes AtB a beta playtest version.




Although I know I will not very popular by saying this, I will say it anyways. I have to agree with you. Why?

Simply because CoH:AtB was a great game without the rules updates. I rated a 9.5 back then. Then some rules changes came up and I was not too happy. Even with the newest rules I am still playing AtB with the original rules and combined with the Marshall board and scenarios the game is awesome. I rate it a 10 now.

As a fan of the CoH system (microbadge in the way) I am happy to know that Academy games are always trying to improve an already nice system. It is Ok, IMHO, if some small details are "improved" and these updates are posted on the CoH site. However, what I do not like is the fact that the rules are being dramatically changed. I cannot deny that it really bothers me that a number (I hope not too many) of my AtB counters will be worthless. It is not a matter of money (CAD$100 btw) but as someone who really enjoyed the system all I wanted was the new games (expansions) to be consequent to AtB. Now, SoS does not feel like a extension/stand alone to me. It feels more like a CoH: 2nd edition with new theme. I wanted expansions, not replacements or new editions.

I was very excited over getting SoS and all the other goodies to come, but the facts that the rules are being changed so much and that counters will be replaced do give me a feeling that I have been playing a beta game

I will try SoS, but in order to be "up to date" with the game I will be required to not only invest a lot of money, but also my time as I will have to learn new rules (not just additional rules) every now and then.

In the end I guess I will just continue playing this awesome game the way I like it.

Take care and have a great day!

Romian

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Vasilis
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kaufschtick wrote:
2 threads is hardly a drop in the bucket compared to the many threads expressing a "thumbs up" here about the game, often repeating the same items over and over again.

How dare you suggest I "be quiet" in the name of spamming. If you don't like the thread, don't read it.


I wrote that there is no need for a new thread regarding the same subject. I believe I also wrote that you are entitled to your opinion and that you certainly can express it in these forums. Please point me to where I dare suggest you to "be quiet"?

The components vs rules argument is outright funny to think it as a different topic than your previous thread and I won't comment on it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

You seem angry about people posting good things about this game.

Quote:
I guess a lot of CoH fans consider my views as trying to rain on their parade, but I'm just calling it the way I see it.


Quote:
2 threads is hardly a drop in the bucket compared to the many threads expressing a "thumbs up" here about the game, often repeating the same items over and over again.


Why is that? Should everyone be angry that the rules have changed? Will that make you happy? {I'm not expecting an answer...}


Since you are in some sort of holy crusade to prove that you are 100% right on this subject and you don't really process what other people have to say in reply to your "drop in the bucket" threads, I will certainly follow your advice and never read any of your CoH posts again. There is nothing to be gained by anyone from this discussion anyway.

Happy Gaming
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David Schubert
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>You can agree or disagree with it at your dicretion.

No matter how often it is posted.

Ciao
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Obsolete Man
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It would have been nice if the AtB rules were already the pinnacle of refinement, but I don't think it's fair to say that AtB was a Beta test. It is playable just fine right out of the box and is a strong game in its own right.

However, as the line moves forward, Uwe has evidently found that certain things will work better if done a bit differently. Hey... I'd rather he make a few adjustments here and there rather than stick with something he knows to be less good than it could be.

I'd like to remind the OP that the complete rules to CoH: SoS are available for free. Also available for free is a document telling you how to use AtB with the new rules. A more polished version of that document is on the way.

So you've got the following options:

1) Continue to play AtB with the out of the box rules. You already gave it a "10" so I don't see the problem.

2) Use the free documents to play AtB with the new rules, having to buy nothing further because it's all free.

3) Print out the SoS rules (or buy SoS to enjoy all the Kursky goodness it offers) and buy the Poland expansion to get new counters for AtB.

Now that's a lot of room to tailor your own play, and at no point do you have to buy anything new to enjoy a top-quality gaming experience.

If you think AtB is worth a "10" rating, keep playing it and enjoying the heck out of it. If the SoS rules tweaks make it even better than before, use those free documents to enhance your experience even further. You don't have to buy anything to get all this fun, so from my perspective there's really not much to complain about. It looks win-win from where I'm sitting.

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Richard Savage
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"Woe is me, I had to print out a couple of pages of rules changes on my OWN printer!" If you can't afford the hobby, I suggest that you try another one then. How about bird-watching?
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James Carlton
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I don't get it.

I know there are people out there who might prefer the first editions of a game. Space Hulk 1.0, D&D First Ed, Settlers 1st Ed, Warhammer/40K 1st Ed, the original Talisman, Runescape 1st Ed, MTG Alpha and so on and so on for virtually every popular game ever released.

This is fine - as yet I have not heard of anyone being arrested for being happy with what they have and not buying the new version.

It's also slightly unfortunate that games are often released in an imperfect state.

But it's hardly news.

My bus is often late, the weather report is often wrong, I frequently get unwanted email. None of these things seem worth making a huge song and dance about.

Writing 3-4 different posts expressing dissatisfaction about a pretty minor annoyance that is basically par for the course with this hobby on the eve of the games release sounds a bit off to me - especially when the gripe isn't even about this game but its predecessor.

I wouldn't call myself a CoH fanboy. My entire experience of the game consists of opening the box this morning and smelling the contents. Criticism has its place, but repeating the same minor quibble over and over sounds like there's an alterior motive here.
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Miguel
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Kaufschtick,

I suggest you re-read your posts with an open mind and hopefully see that your writing style invites the kinds of responses you say you don't want. Your original post is long on criticism and short on back-up, making it hard to respond with the level of discussion you seem like you want to have. To put it another way, your post contains most of the elements you are criticizing others about.

Back on topic, I was also disappointed that the designer decided to make rules changes that required modifications to the components. The rules changes in AtB were ok, because it's easy enough to take or leave them. With the changes made in SoS, it's a little frustrating that we are already talking about replacement components to AtB. What it means in practice is that the two games will exist somewhat independently rather than potentially combining (for new scenarios, etc).

Luckily, so far in my reading of the rules it seems like the changes make the revised components desirable but not necessary (i.e. certain rules that were implicit before, such as resolving red vs. blue attack strength, is now explicit on the counters). I'm not done reading the rulebook though, so there might be exceptions to that.

As far as recommendations to new players, beta testing, etc, it probably boils down to your expectations as a customer. If you bought AtB because it was billed as an extensible system that would get a constant stream of new scenarios and units that could potentially work together, then the new developments are somewhat disappointing. If, on the other hand, you bought either AtB or SoS because they are high production value, simple but not simplistic and multiplayer wargames (like most eurogamer crossovers here probably did) then either individual purchase could be an excellent choice.

One last point: I don't think too many people would argue that the original AtB rules weren't finely tuned. They accomplished what they set out to do very well and with remarkable simplicity. "Finely tuned" is not the same as "perfect" or even "future expansion proof". Saying otherwise belittles the effort that goes into the creative process.
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Kevin Reynolds
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I will say this. If I don't like how the SoS rules with AtB, then I will ignore them and just use what I already have. Original rules, or revised rules, original counters, whatever.

I didn't lose a game here. I gained a game that is slightly different.
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Tobias Moos
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kaufschtick wrote:

It's not about being 100% right or wrong...it's about an opinion. In this case mine. You can agree or disagree with it at your discretion.

That's called your opinion.


i wholeheartedly disagree with your opinion. but that's just my opinion.

and the only reason why i post this is that people who are not happy with something use usually much stronger words to express their feeling than someone who's content with the current situation.

so, uwe:
"please continue the way you are handling your games. not only do you keep producing enjoyable games, you even give me a free update to my old games i already bought from you. thank you, thank you."

(Edit: spelling)
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Mark Mitchell
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The key point is that kaufstick thinks AtB is a Beta game which is just incorrect, it works fully and has pretty good scenario balance. Ewe is bringing a richer experience with SOS which you may use with AtB but you don't have to! Like many games that are 'systems' they tend to get modified, updated and change over time. I love living rules idea as long as the changes are sensible and add to the game which after reading SOS I think this is the case. You should praise Ewe for taking on board suggestions and changes and merging them into the new rules while allowing us to play AtB with either rules (new counters or not).

Nitpicking designer notes is hardly worthy of anyone's time.
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Brian F
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this is why I hide Kaufstiff's posts - I'm tired of reading the same thing over and over
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Tom Grant
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Guys, it's not too hard to see the merit in what both sides are saying in this discussion.

Rule changes are a fact of life
Since I don't have my copy of CoH:SoS yet, and I haven't taken the time to read the new rulebook online, I can't say how different the new rules are. However, every game goes through some rule changes. Panzer Grenadier has gone through three separate editions. Even the venerable ASL, which has core mechanics as solid as the Rock of Gibraltar, has experienced some minor tweaks over the last 20 years.

Tweaks matter, however. It's hard to say what constitutes a major change, because in any game, seemingly minor changes in mechanics can have major effects. During my one solo play of Richard III, it was abundantly clear how applying all hits to the strongest enemy unit profoundly altered the face of battle in a Columbia block game.

Let's also cut Uwe some slack here. CoH:AtB was a great game from a new designer and publisher.

Component changes are not
Honestly, I'm a bit annoyed to hear that the components are changing to match the new rules. I can always play with the old rules and counters, but if the new rules are a significant improvement, it bothers me more than a little bit that I have to purchase an expansion to get to the 2.0 state of the game.

In contrast, Panzer Grenadier did not require you to toss your old counters to get current with the 3.0 rules. (See this thread in which I asked about that issue.) In any game, new components--not matter how necessary they might be to keep current with the rules, no matter how much nicer the quality--are an economic imposition. You bought the game for $80, only to discover, you didn't, exactly.

In a series game, obviously, the cost goes way up if component changes are necessary. Sure, a component upgrade might happen only this one time, but it's an unusual event. Here's where Uwe obviously has to assure his customers that it won't happen again.
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Stefan Koller
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Kingdaddy, thanks for that summary. You're spot on. A similar case in a different genre appeared with Talisman 4th edition when it changed publisher. People could buy an upgrade box from edition 4.0 to 4.1 (paper to plastic figures); buying the upgrade kit was a prerequisite to combine your base game with the newest expansions. Which brings me to this:

Kingdaddy wrote:
In a series game, obviously, the cost goes way up if component changes are necessary. Sure, a component upgrade might happen only this one time, but it's an unusual event. Here's where Uwe obviously has to assure his customers that it won't happen again.


Or Eickert is up front that one of the previous instalments isn't suitable to be mixed with newer instalments. I'm perfectly happy for new instalments of CoH to come along which render previous components obsolete, as long as I'm told so. The OP's concern, I think, partly arises from the situation that when he bought the first instalment he had no clue of the massive amount of work and effort on his part to keep that game usable in conjunction with later instalments. (And that usability seems to be significant if there's ever going to be a scenario editor tool online, for fans to mix components from all instalments which others can play.) What aggravates him is that the current instalment isn't completely outspoken on this either, and that's why I think (contrary to other posters) that it's well worth bringing up these designer comments in their own right.

Edit, Monday 12th I stand rectified - the components of CoH 1 and CoH 2 are, contrary to appearances, compatible, as spelled out here.
 
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