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Subject: Combat, Actions and Corruption rss

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mateo jurasic
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Playing a game
orc units 1 unit with a power 1 to attack my territory
I assign no defenders
Opponent plays a card which increases the orc units power to 3, which would burn my territory (Waagh).
At this point, can I play Seduced by Darkness, to corrupt that unit and prevent it from attacking?
Is it too late?

Scout
if a scout unit "damages" an already burning section of the capital, does the scout ability take effect?

sadistic Mutation: if a unit with sadistic mutation attacks a burning area, does it get to trigger its effect and cause one damage?

if a one power unit with sadistic mutation attacks and its single battlefield damage is prevented with contested fortress, can it triggers its effect?

if a one power unit with sadistic mutation attacks along with a second unit with one power, and the opponent has a contested fortress, can the defending player use the contested fortress to prevent the one point of damage from the unit with sadistic mutation to prevent the triggering of the SM card, and allow the second unit to do damage? I would think all damage is applied as a whole, and individual damage cant get specifically prevented any way (with cards, defenders, effects etc, but who knows.

Followers of Mork: 2 indirect damage to each person... that can go anywhere right? Capital or units?

 
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Justin Fitzgerald
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Sometimes you need to play cards in an earlier phase than you might be used to with other games.

mateooo wrote:
Playing a game
orc units 1 unit with a power 1 to attack my territory
I assign no defenders
Opponent plays a card which increases the orc units power to 3, which would burn my territory (Waagh).
At this point, can I play Seduced by Darkness, to corrupt that unit and prevent it from attacking?
Is it too late?


Corruption prevents a card from being declared an attacker or defender. You'd have to have done this before he was declared as an attacker.

Quote:
Scout
if a scout unit "damages" an already burning section of the capital, does the scout ability take effect?


I'd say yes. Combat involves the entire process of declaring attackers and all of that. Even unmolested, the scout ability procs.

Quote:
sadistic Mutation: if a unit with sadistic mutation attacks a burning area, does it get to trigger its effect and cause one damage?


In this case, I think no. The mutation requires you to do damage, correct? Seems as though a burning section is not a target that can take damage .

Quote:
if a one power unit with sadistic mutation attacks and its single battlefield damage is prevented with contested fortress, can it triggers its effect?


No.

Quote:
if a one power unit with sadistic mutation attacks along with a second unit with one power, and the opponent has a contested fortress, can the defending player use the contested fortress to prevent the one point of damage from the unit with sadistic mutation to prevent the triggering of the SM card, and allow the second unit to do damage? I would think all damage is applied as a whole, and individual damage cant get specifically prevented any way (with cards, defenders, effects etc, but who knows.


I would think you can pick which point of damage is negated but could be wrong.

Quote:
Followers of Mork: 2 indirect damage to each person... that can go anywhere right? Capital or units?


Correct. Doesn't specifically call out units.
 
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I agree with everything Justin has said here (not that he needs my approval, certainly!) but I do not agree that the Scout ability should work without a Defender. Call me old-fashioned or just plain stupid but by my thinking, you kind of need a defender to have a combat/battle.

Also, we still don't know if Burning sections can take damage or not (officially speaking) - however, I'd think that they wouldn't, all things considered.
 
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Justin Fitzgerald
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wytefang - I'm with you on it feeling wrong but do want to say the literal interpretation requires the card to be discarded.

Combat is made up of a series of steps:
- assignment of attackers
- assignment of defenders
- attacker damage assignment
- defender damage assignment
- damage takes effect

By the very nature of the scout being declared as an attacker, if he's not dead by the end of the combat phase, a card will be discarded.

Even by the "feels right" interpretation, how would you handle it if the scout went after an undefended section of wall? How about if the scout also did zero damage?

Isn't it the fact that he found out information about his opponents plans why the discard occurs, not because he shot an arrow or something?
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mateo jurasic
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toughness and damage prevention and sadistic mutation
MAybe Im getting something wrong, but I thought all damage was lumped together, and then assigned, so that during a single battlefield phases

x amount of damage is inflicted by y number of attacking units, counted up, and becomes generic "damage"
it is then assigned by the attacker to various z number of defending units and possibly the capital assumging enough damage is inflicted.

so, by my understanding, during a single battle, a unit with "toughness" just gets to use the toughness damage prevention once, assuming other card effects dont occur.

ie

3 nurglings attack one defending dwarf Hammerer of Karak Azul.
Those three nurgling do 3 damage, it is assigned to the Hammerer, he prevents one damage with toughness 1 ability, and then dies, because he has 2 damage and only 2 hitpoints.

Another interpretation is this
3 nurglings attack the hammerer.
he has toughness 1, so prevents 1 damage from each source (each nurgling counts as a different source), and so prevents one damage from each nurgling, getting 0 damage.

If the first scenario is correct, then I would argue you CAN NOT choose to prevent the damage from one attacking unit while allowing the damage from another attacking unit, in order to prevent the activation of a unit effect ie scout, sadistic mutation, etc. This is because the damage becomes lumped together into a generic "total damage"

If the second scenario is correct, well, that makes toughness very very powerful, and a single hammerer could survive the onslaught of an infinite number of nurglings, which doesnt make sense.
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Justin Fitzgerald
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Toughness activates during the "damage is dealt" phase, rather than the "assign attacker's damage phase".

If you are preventing damage, you'd be doing it as the attacker is assigning it. During this time, the damage is not generic.

After that phase (and after defender assignment), we get to the "damage is dealt" phase. The damage is now generic (who can say who caused what anymore). Toughness then procs a single time.

(It might also make a little more sense if you look at the phase order in the rulebook and see where action cards can be played. That cleared up a lot of my questions about when you'd be using certain cards.)
 
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Mathias Simonsson
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Mateooos first senario sounds right to me.

Justin i cannot find anything in the rulebook that confirms what yuo're saying (concerning your last post).

What i do find, is under the 5.Apply Damage step (what i guess is your "damage is dealt" phase):
Quote:
At this point, effects like Thougness kick in and cancel damage before it reaches the target.

The Fortress card reads "Cancel 1 damage to your capital each turn". To me that sounds like a Thougness like effect.

The 4. Assign Damage step dosn't mention damage prevention at all. I'm pretty sure it has to say so on the card if it prevents damage when it's assigned (and not applied).

I agree to everyting else you have said though.
 
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Chris Jacobson
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Mateo's first scenario is correct. Read the example on p 13 of the rules.

All damage is calculated as a whole single number, and then applied. There is no "unit A damages unit B".

The process is:

Attacker declares what units he will attack with from Battlefield, and which target zone he will attack.

Either player may now play actions.

Defender declares defending units.

Either player may now play actions.

Both players total up the number of damage they will do. So for example, attacking units A, B, and C will do X total damage, and defending units D and E will do Y damage. The players will take the number of damage tokens they will deal from the pool.

Attacker allocates damage. Using above example, attackers X damage may be allocated between defending units D and E as the attacker pleases (within limits) and any extra damage beyond the minimum necesary to kill the defenders may allocated to the capitol (or to the defenders). Attacker places these damage tokens on D, E, and capitol zone.

Then the Defender allocates Y damage between attackers A, B, and C as they please. Defender places these damage tokens on A, B, and C.

Either player may now play actions.

Finally, the damage is applied. Toughness kicks in to negate damage, units are removed if they have as much or more damage than health, and zones may be now be burned (and someone may now be the winner).

Either player may now play actions.

The Fortress card follows the same rules as damage - it prevents the damage from being applied (but not assigned).

This is where the Bloodthirster is really nasty - rules on the card are "Damage may not be cancelled." Because damage has no source (pooled before assigned), the interpretation of this rule is more insidious than one might think - it is a universal constant rule, thus NO damage may be cancelled by any unit/power while the Bloodthirster is in play. The rule does not say "dealt by this player in a combat that the Bloodthirster participates in", thus making it a completely global rule. A great counter to the Dwarven strength, if you can get it into play and keep feeding it (if you run out of units to sacrifice to the bloodthirster, you must sacrifice it).
 
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mateo jurasic
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thanks for the help guys
 
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Justin Fitzgerald
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I firmly disagree:

Attacker declares what units he will attack with from Battlefield, and which target zone he will attack.

Either player may now play actions.

The defender plays Demoralise (reduce target unit by 2 power) on Servants of Khorne with Sadistic Mutation, reducing their effective power to 0, meaning "they did not do damage".

Now when the Assign Damage comes up, the Servants of Khorne do not contribute to the pool and ultimately Sadistic Mutation does not proc.

The very fact that this is a targeted power says through and through that damage of a specific unit can be prevented. Otherwise, Demoralize
would read: Reduce total combat damage of your opponent by 2. It does not, therefore combat damage by a particular attacker can be prevented.

However, once you're past this point, you can no longer identify which attacker did what, as it is generally pooled.

--

The Bloodthirster also affects damage outside of combat like Nurgle's Pestilence (deal 1 damage to all units in play, plus 1 more if they're corrupted).
 
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mateo jurasic
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there is a difference between "reduce power by x" and "prevent x damage to the capital".

Can you actually prevent damage that has not been produced and assigned yet? Or does it have to be assigned first?

You can, however, "reduce power by x" to stop any damage from being produced, before or during the declare attacker phase.

I would assume you would have to use demoralize before damage has been assigned, by the timing of the game, because once damage has been assigned, it is now "separate" from the unit that produced it, and that units power no longer matters (sort of like trying to corrupt a unit that has already been assigned as an attacker)


So your statement, "The very fact that this is a targeted power says through and through that damage of a specific unit can be prevented" would apply to demoralize to PREVENT THAT UNIT FROM PRODUCING DAMAGE, but I dont think it would apply to contested fortress which I believe PREVENTS ASSIGNED DAMAGE FROM BEING APPLIED.

Might have to wait for official FAQ on this.



 
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Damon Stone
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We will need a FAQ on this, but I would say that dmage while "pooled" together is still considered to be from separate sources and here is why...

What happens when each of your attacking characters produces damage that has some additional benefit or effect? I cancel 3 of the 5 damage. Which of your side effects gets to trigger? Who gets to decide? Do they all trigger despite my having technically stopped multiple sources from ever inflicting damage? Do none of them trigger since we can no longer tell which ones hit? The only thing that makes sense is that while the total damage is pooled, the sources are still considered separate and any canceling of damage is able to single out a specific source of said damage and prevent that.

IOW just because it says we total damage there is nothing saying the sources of damage are forgotten or are in any way discounted.
 
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Justin Fitzgerald
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I was in the middle of writing a huge post about generic damage when I realized pretty much what Damon said. It never says the damage becomes generic, it just seems that way because you total it all up.

Mental exercise: Let's say there is a card which says "Prevent all damage dealt by target unit this turn." What phase could it be played in?

I'd think any, up until the Apply Damage phase. Damage would not be retroactively removed if it happened in a previous phase though as you passed that point.

Now how about a card that says, "Prevent 2 damage dealt by target unit." What phase?

Well this doesn't put a status of "this turn" on it, so the effect doesn't really target a unit. It actually targets the damage done by a unit. So this card could only be played after damage had been assigned and before it had been dealt.
 
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Damon Stone
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That makes no sense though. Just because the video tutorial shows adding the damage up to assign it does not mean that it isn't specific units dealing the damage. Again how else do we determine which of your special effects activate when damage was canceled.

You attack with three units with Sadistic Mutations on them. Total of 5 power of damage will be assigned. Each of your three units' effects will trigger when they do damage. I cancel 4 of that 5 damage. What happens? How do you handle that? Which of your three trigger. Your reasoning seems to imply that all three effects should be triggering since they all participated in a damaging attack. But we no that isn't the case because Sadistic Mutation reads-
Quote:
Forced: After the attached unit deals damage
in combat, deal 1 damage to one target unit or capital.


It clearly states the attached unit must deal damage, canceled damage is not dealt, toughness cancels damage before it is applied, therefor if the unit bearing Sadistic Mutation has their damage canceled then SM does not trigger.

I think any other interpretation is going to need to be backed by a statement from FFG. You may be absolutely correct, but it creates situations like the above which clearly need to be sorted out in an official ruling.
 
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Justin Fitzgerald
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Excellent point. I was thinking the same thing
 
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Damon Stone
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It is applied damage. Assigned damage is not considered to have been successful until after it is applied. That is why damage assigned can be canceled or redirected but after it has been applied it can only be healed or moved.

You don't have to take my word for it though (and probably shouldn't if you think I'm wrong), I encourage you sending the question to Nate.
 
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Chris Jacobson
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dormouse wrote:
That makes no sense though. Just because the video tutorial shows adding the damage up to assign it does not mean that it isn't specific units dealing the damage. Again how else do we determine which of your special effects activate when damage was canceled.


How about the step by step example in the book? That clearly shows the damage is summed and then distributed with no source.

Look at the Turn Sequence on page 14 for when actions can be performed.

Specifically for the Demoralize card, it reduces the number of Power Icons. It could, for example, played between Kingdom and Quest phase on a card in the Quest zone to prevent opponent from drawing additional cards; it could not be played to prevent resource gathering during the Kingdom phase as you cannot perform actions until the end of the Kingdom phase. Demoralize does not reduce damage, just Power Icons (which may reduce the damage inflicted during the Battlefield phase).

The latest point at which the Demoralize card could be played and have an effect is immediately after Declare Defenders. Once the Assign Damage phase starts, you cannot perform any actions until the end of the phase.

During the Assign Damage phase is when damage is counted and assigned - this is when the damage is Inflicted (as per the p12, first paragraph under Assign Damage). The rules state that the Player counts the number of Power Icons on the units he controls that are participating in the Battle, and that this damage is Inflicted upon his Opponent. Note that it never states that the damage is directly inflicted upon the opponents units yet.

It's fairly clear: Units dont hit specific units, just as you cannot declare an attack against a unit, only a zone. Units participate in a mass combat, dealing out a total amount of damage and suffering damage in return... Unless you want to argue that "Inflict" and "Deal" mean different things, it should be well defined at this point when dealing damage occurs.

Once damage has been counted and assigned, it is placed and cannot be retracted, only Cancelled. At this point, between Assign Damage and Apply Damage, actions can be performed again, such as the Dwarven "Cancel all Damage" action (of course, Bloodthirster's power overrides this and prevents it from occuring). Once you move onto Apply Damage is when Toughness kicks in, as well.
 
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Damon Stone
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Accept one point has been overlooked
Quote:
Page 13 Sect.5 - Both players now apply the assigned damage to the cards to which it has been assigned. At this point, effects like Toughness (see Toughness, page 16) kick in and cancel damage before it reaches the target.


If Toughness or any other form of cancel kicks in right before damage is applied and as it says before it reaches the target, then damage cannot have been dealt if it never reaches the target, it is potential damage not actualized damage. I mean that is like me swinging my fist at you and falling short by several inches and me claiming that I totally did damage to you because I swung my fist extra hard through the air. great super. Fine, but if I don't hit you I don't damage you.

Also I never brought Demoralize up, it has no direct effect on damage it affects power. Power boosts and drains are completely beside the point.

And your examples still don't answer my fundamental question, and I'd like you to address directly rather than ignoring it. If all damage is grouped together and considered detached from its source what happens when I cancel sum or most of it but you have several SMs in play. How many additional points of damage do you get to do and by what reasoning? Until you can answer this question applying your same logic you are going to have a hard time convincing people that your way is makes sense. My way answers this clearly and simply.
 
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Damon Stone
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I just sent an email to Nate. I don't know when he'll get back to me, I know he has at least one game in testing right now.
 
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Justin Fitzgerald
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I'm thinking this situation is a little silly:

Attacker assigns damage to 3 defenders, defender decides that the one point of damage he cancels with toughness is the one done by the Servant of Khorne with Sadistic Mutation. Thinking no...

It's gotta be once damage is assigned that it can no longer be prevented in some sort of unit targeted way.
 
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Damon Stone
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Why? Why is it silly? I mean you as attacker get to assign damage, if you want to assign your damage from the unit with the SM to the guy with toughness then that is on you.
 
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Chris Jacobson
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dormouse wrote:
Accept one point has been overlooked
Quote:
Page 13 Sect.5 - Both players now apply the assigned damage to the cards to which it has been assigned. At this point, effects like Toughness (see Toughness, page 16) kick in and cancel damage before it reaches the target.


And your examples still don't answer my fundamental question, and I'd like you to address directly rather than ignoring it. If all damage is grouped together and considered detached from its source what happens when I cancel sum or most of it but you have several SMs in play. How many additional points of damage do you get to do and by what reasoning?


It seems like the convo split into a couple different questions, and we're both talking about slightly different issues, which is causing some confusion. Your post caused me reread the thread again just to make sure I wasn't going off on a tangent, and I don't think that helped... so I'll answer this question as written.

It seems you are working on the belief that a unit must be dealt damage for another unit to be considered to have dealt the damage. I'll try to resolve this first.

The rules state that damage is dealt ("Inflicted") during Assign Damage. Nowhere in the rules does it say (or imply) that damage must be 'successful' and not cancelled to be "dealt" - the rulebook states damage is "Inflicted" to the "player's opponent" immediately at the start of Assign Damage, and then that the "Inflicted damage" must be Assigned to opposing units/capitol. I believe it's a fair assumption to say Inflicted and Dealt are synonymous, as the rule book uses the interchangeably. Therefore a unit can deal damage even if no victim unit is dealt the damage. If we disagree on this, then the rest of this post is moot and we might as well agree to disagree on the matter and be done with it until Nate responds.

Sadistic Mutation is a Forced effects, and triggers off of the attached unit dealing damage, which will occur during the Assign Damage phase (when the damage is Inflicted). Forced effects always occur immediately, and cannot be cancelled or interrupted. They are not Actions.

Cancelling damage does not occur until the end of Assign Damage (unless it is a triggered effect), and also occurs via Toughness during Apply Damage. At this point is has already been Inflicted and Assigned.

Therefore, cancelling damage has no effect on Sadistic Mutation or any other ability that triggers on Dealing Damage, as the trigger occurs before the cancellation can occur.

As long as the unit with SM attached is a declared defender/attacker, and is not destroyed or otherwise removed from the combat prior to the Assign Damage phase beginning, it will deal damage in combat, in turn triggering the Forced effect of Sadistic Mutation.

If you have multiple units with SM, and all of the units deal damage in combat, then they will all deal an additional point of damage, even if the combat damage itself is entirely cancelled (which does not occur until later, after the trigger occurs).

A more difficult question is: is the 1 damage from SM pooled with the rest of the combat damage, or does it cause a pause to combat, and an Assign-Apply step of it's own.

As the implication here is that the damage is not part of combat damage (as it comes from a Forced Effect), to use the former method (assigned, to be applied with other combat damage) would actually affect ALL damage-dealing Actions from any source that are played at the end of Assign Damage, as well as any triggered effects during this phase. This would make them more powerful by allowing them to stack when they otherwise would not - Actions are resolved before being completed normally, and in reverse order that they are played. The second method may devalue some Actions and Forced effects, such as Sadistic Mutation, by making it easier to cancel said damage (i.e, a unit with Toughness would cancel the damage, and still have the full Toughness available to cancel any combat damage during Apply Damage), but is more in line with how Actions resolve.
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Justin Fitzgerald
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MaineCoon wrote:
A more difficult question is: is the 1 damage from SM pooled with the rest of the combat damage, or does it cause a pause to combat, and an Assign-Apply step of it's own.

As the implication here is that the damage is not part of combat damage (as it comes from a Forced Effect), to use the former method (assigned, to be applied with other combat damage) would actually affect ALL damage-dealing Actions from any source that are played at the end of Assign Damage, as well as any triggered effects during this phase. This would make them more powerful by allowing them to stack when they otherwise would not - Actions are resolved before being completed normally, and in reverse order that they are played. The second method may devalue some Actions and Forced effects, such as Sadistic Mutation, by making it easier to cancel said damage (i.e, a unit with Toughness would cancel the damage, and still have the full Toughness available to cancel any combat damage during Apply Damage), but is more in line with how Actions resolve.


Nice freaking post. I bet you're right and SM is useless for taking out Toughness units.
 
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mateo jurasic
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hmm three different opinions
1) you can use effects to cancel damage produced by a specific target unit inf a group of attacking units during combat to prevent the effect of cards based on inflicting damage (scout, sadistic mutation, etc.)
2) You cant cancel specific damage from a specific unit in a group of attacking units, because the damage from all units is pooled. The only way you can prevent the effect of abilities based on inflicting damage is to prevent all of the damage.
3) You can cancel all the damage you want, but once a card has produced damage, regardless of whether that damage is assigned and eventually inflicted, it triggers its ability based on inflicting damage.
4)if a scout or SM modified unit attacks and "damages" an already burning section of the capital, do these abilities that trigger based on inflicting damage take effect?

And now a new question

5) Does the damage from Sadistic mutation get pooled with the rest of combat damage, or is it a separate source of combat damage, and get separately canceled by toughness, making SM impossible to damage any unit with toughness.

I think we can all agree that we just dont know these answers, and reasonable arguments can be made for just about all sides
What is the correct answer? Inquiring minds want to know.
 
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Damon Stone
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We'll have to agree to disagree. I read the totaling of damage they inflict not as a they have just inflicted this damage, but will inflict this damage.

In the same way if I total the amount of bullets in my M-16. That is potentially the number of times I may hit my target. I fire till no more bullets come out. I total the times I hit my target and realize that I missed 3 times. I hit it 27 times. Just totaling the rounds I am shooting does not give me the times I actually hit the target. Totaling the damage I inflict is not the same as having successfully damaged the target.

I don't believe dealing damage and have dealt damage can be separated... and that is what you are asking. Toughness specifically says damage is canceled before reaching the target. I can't stand behind any interpretation of the rules that has this fact not preventing SM from going off without direct confirmation from Nate. The card says deals damage, passed tense, and no where does it say damage is delt during the assign damage phase (as a matter of fact the only place where deals or delt is even y=used in the rule book is non-combat damage, specifically Counterstrike, and not in a way that supports your statements). As a matter of fact it says specifically that damage during the assigned phase is placed near the unit. If that damage does not make it to the unit I don't see how anything in the rules supports the unit having been damaged at this point, and we do have rules that seems to say damage is successfully dealt only when it is successfully applied, that is when the damage tokens are first put on the unit and which point they are removed from play if the amount of damage they have is equal to or more than the HP they posses.

I suspect if it is the way you say that SM is the problem more than the interpretation of the rules, that the force effect should read something more like -
Quote:
Forced: After the attached unit has contributed damage to be assigned , assign 1 additional damage to one target unit or capital.


That would allow the rules to be interpreted straight forward and still allow for SM to be an auto damage point. If it is the rules, then they are unforgivably poorly written concerning damage and in addition to the FAQ they should re-write the rules when they reprint the Core Set. Perhaps they should anyway, because any rules that allows for two totally differing interpretations is obviously not written clearly enough.
 
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