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Subject: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - Game On! Long N0 - bid for role rss

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Brian Thomas
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Riner Nitzia’s Werewolf

Just in case of potential legal issues, I’ve deliberately misspelled his name. But what would happen if the famous doktor designed a Werewolf game? It would need to have auctions, victory points, and at least one special little twist. I can’t guarantee that this is the game he would design. But it could be.

13 Player Werewolf game.
3 wolves, 1 aux evil, 1 seer, 8 villagers

Game is "normal" werewolf, subject to the abilities bought by the players. All roles will be revealed on death. Abilities will not.

The Auction
On Night 0, players will bid for roles. All players will place a bid on each on each of the 4 roles: wolf, aux evil, seer, and villager. The total of all 4 bids must be 10. Bids may not be negative, and must be integers.

Roles will then be allocated to high bidder in the following order: villager, aux evil, wolves, seer. i.e., the 8 highest bidders for villager will be given the villager role. Then the highest bidder for aux evil, out of the unassigned players, will be given the aux evil role, and so on. In the event of a tie, the tied players will be evaluated in the subsequent categories , and the lower bidder in that category will be selected for the role for which they were tied. If all role bids are tied, then the selection will be done randomly.

Quote:
Example:
In determining the villagers, 6 players have bids greater than 5, 3 players bid 5, and the other 4 players bid less than 5. 8 villagers are needed, so all 6 bidders over 5 become villagers. I then look at the aux evil bids for the 3 players bidding 5. If those bids are 3, 5, and 1 from players A, B, and C respectively, then players A and C become villagers because they have the 2 lowest aux evil bids. Player B and the 4 players bidding less than 5 for villager will then be evaluated to determine who is the aux evil.


Once all roles are assigned, the total of all winning bids on evil roles will be divided as evenly as possible among the good roles. The total of all winning bids on good roles will be divided by 3 (rounded up) and placed in a common pool for the wolves to use. The aux evil player does not get any points from this division, but will be told how many points the average villager received. Each villager will also receive bonus points equal to the difference between their villager bid and the lowest winning villager bid.

Winning the Game
The game ends when either all wolves are dead (+10 Victory points for good), or wolves have achieved parity with villagers (+10 Victory points for evil). The total victory points for both teams are totaled and the winner is the team with the most victory points. Note that this means it is completely possible to lose the game end condition and still win the game.


Villager abilities (cost)

Whisper (1) - Once per game, send 1 anonymous message to a player of your choice. Can be bought multiple times.

LeatherNeck (3) - Tough to lynch. Will not die the first time they are lynched. Will die the second time they are lynched, or the first time they are targeted for any other kill.

Tough (4) - Requires 2 lynches or nightkills to be killed, including brutal and vigilante attacks.

Brutal (3) - If killed, may chose any one player to kill.

Defensive Brutal (4) - if lynched, does not get to kill anyone. If killed any other way, retaliates against killer.

Vigilante(4) - May choose to kill any player at night, once per game. May only be bought once. If you kill a good role with this power, good loses 2 victory points. If you kill an evil role, good gains 2 victory points.

Hunter (3) - Counts for 2 in parity check. If alone with a wolf at the end of the game, good gains the game ending bonus, and gets an additional bonus of 3 victory points.

Witness (2) - Chose one player each night. If the player is killed, receive the name of one randomly selected killer.

Ability Priest (1) - Each night, chose one dead player and receive a list of their abilities.

Martyr (1) - Chose a player at night. If the player is targeted by a kill ability, you die instead, and good receives 2 victory points.

Bodyguard (3) - Chose a player at night. If the player is targeted by a kill ability, you negate it. Players targeted by 2 (or more) kill abilities will need 2 (or more) bodyguards’ protection in order to survive. May not be used on the same player in 2 successive nights. Gains 1 victory point for Good for each successful protection.

Aux Seer (2) - Chose a player at night. If the player is the aux evil, you receive a positive view, and Good receives 2 victory points.

Survivor (2) - Gain one victory point for Good every day you are alive after lynch.

Threatening (3) - Gain X victory points for Good if you are killed by the wolves at night. X is:
N1 - 5
N2 - 3
N3 - 1
N4 or later - 0

Decisive (2) - Gain 3 Victory points if you are the deciding vote in a lynch (definition of deciding vote - last vote on the lynchee where the lynchee leads by only 1 vote, or is tied).

Wolf Hater(2) - Gain 2 Victory points every time you successfully vote to lynch a wolf.

Send player points - May send any player up to 3 points, at a cost of 1 point per point sent.

Send seer points - May send the seer up to 3 points, at a cost of 1 point plus 1 point per point sent.

Buy Victory Points - May use points to buy Victory Points. Pay 1 point, and then exchange points for victory points 1 for 1.


Seer abilities - in addition to the villager abilities, the seer can also chose from the following:

Clear Vision (1) - Randomly select 1 player made a Tinker by the wolves. This player is not a Tinker. If more points are spent than the wolves make Tinkers, those points are lost.

Pull Bodyguard (1) - Once per game, determined by the seer, a bodyguard or martyr (randomly chosen) will guard the seer instead of their chosen target. The BG or Martyr will be told they were pulled to the seer, but not who the seer is. If no BG or martyr exists, the ability fails. If this conflicts with the "cannot guard twice in a row" clause, then it fails. May be bought only once.


Evil abilities (cost)

Sorceror (1) - makes aux evil a sorcerer who views for seer

Cultist (2) - makes aux evil a cultist who knows the wolves

Know aux (2) - gives the wolves the identity of the aux evil

Wolf Cub (4) - makes aux evil a wolf cub who is promoted to wolf when the first wolf dies.

Witch (2) - gives aux the ability to block one player’s abilities each night.

Lone Wolf (7) - makes aux evil a Lone wolf who can make a second kill on even numbered nights. May not be combined with any other ability affecting the aux. If this is chosen, the aux will view positive to the seer.

Leatherneck (3) - Tough to lynch only

Tough (4) - takes 2 kill attempts to kill

Brutal (4) - when lynched, may kill one of the people who votes for you. If killed any other way, you do not get to kill.

Unlimited Brutal (6) - when killed by any means, may kill any player.

Ability Seer (1) - Each night, choose one player and receive a list of their abilities - will not detect seer or seer specific abilities.

WitchWolf (3) - gives one wolf the ability to block one player’s abilities each night.

Tinker (2) - makes one random villager a Tinker, who will be seen as "Wolf" by the seer. May be bought multiple times. Note that the seer can spend points to cancel this.

Whisper (1) - Once per game, send 1 anonymous message to a player of your choice. Can be bought multiple times.

Survivor (3) - Gain one victory point for Evil every day you are alive after lynch. (Can be bought for aux evil as well)

Selective Killer (2) - Evil gains 2 victory points each time they kill the seer, or someone with abilities costing more than 2.

Innocent Looking (2) - Evil gains 4 Victory points if the player is not viewed as a wolf by the seer during the game.

Buy Victory Points - May use points to buy Victory Points. Pay 2 points, and then exchange points for victory points, 1 for 1.
 
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Brian Thomas
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - starts Nov. 2 SIGNUP!
reserved, cause everyone is doing it.
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - starts Nov. 2 SIGNUP!
Player List According to Cassandra:
Avin
deborahjeanne
GrimJester
jageroxorz
kristiefix
lvoverride
miraria
Mr Mauve
Snaak

9 players are signed up.

To sign up for this game go to
http://www.thecassandraproject.org/jeremy/werewolf/game/4507...
 
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Greg Wilson
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - starts Nov. 2 SIGNUP!
Tempting...
 
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Jage
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - starts Nov. 2 SIGNUP!
I just signed up on Cassandra.
 
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Greg Wilson
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - starts Nov. 2 SIGNUP!
Oh go on then...

I just signed up on Cassandra.
 
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Brian Thomas
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - starts Nov. 2 SIGNUP!
Where's the love?

If you looked at this thread and decided not to signup, I'd love to know why.

Was it:

- Wrong dates? (Due to BGG.con? Other WW games? Something else?)

- You don't see this being fun?

- You don't get the rules?

- None of the cool kids are signed up? (i.e., your friends aren't doing it)

- Something else entirely? (Stupid name maybe?)



What if I ditched the auction and just made it a straight "Buy special abilities for your role" kind of game - does that make it more interesting?
 
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Greg Wilson
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - starts Nov. 2 SIGNUP!
I pulled out because I need to take a break from BGG Werewolf generally. Nothing against the game itself, it looks interesting, and I'd have liked to give it a try.
 
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Avin Fernando
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - starts Nov. 2 SIGNUP!
I generally haven't been signing up for games lately, due to not being able to play from work and not having enough time at home, but lately I discovered I could still post from work on the new geekdo.com site, and this looks interesting.

Rules wrote:
Note that this means it is completely possible to lose the game end condition and still win the game.


Totally Knizia!

What are the lynch times and start date? I can't check Cassie from work, but I'll sign up when I get home assuming this will start after Evil Mod 3 ends.
 
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - starts Nov. 2 SIGNUP!
I'm looking through the rules right now. The times work for me.

Avin, in Cassie it says start Nov. 2, dusk 4 pm, dawn 7 pm.

I will sign up for now just on the basis of Avin saying he'd like to play.
 
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - starts Nov. 2 SIGNUP!
Quote:
Once all roles are assigned, the total of all winning bids on evil roles will be divided as evenly as possible among the good roles. The total of all winning bids on good roles will be divided by 3 (rounded up) and placed in a common pool for the wolves to use.

So the higher your winning bid for your role is, the more buy-points you give to the other team. Is that the idea?

Hm, in that case why would anyone bid high for any role?

Once they're in chat, the wolves can figure out pretty accurately how many points they've given to the goods, and they know how many they've got. Could that be a big advantage for evil?

---

Hm, just looking at some possible average winning bids:

9 goods * (avg. bid) 10 = 90, wolves get 30 (this won't happen)
9 * 8 = 72, wolves get 24
9 * 5 = 45, wolves get 15
9 * 4 = 36, wolves get 12
9 * 3 = 27, wolves get 9


4 evils * 10 = 40, 9 goods get 4-5 each
4 * 8 = 32, goods get 3-4 each
4 * 5 = 20, goods get 2 each
4 * 4 = 16, goods get 2 each (some 1)
4 * 3 = 12, goods get 1 each (some 2)
 
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - starts Nov. 2 SIGNUP!
Hm, I would be kinda bummed if I was playing this and there were "too many" toughs and/or brutals. It looks to me like no villager is going to be able to afford that, but the wolves can probably easily afford at least 1 or 2.

Oh yeah, when does the ability buying take place? All at the start, every night, any time?

As for buying victory points, why would anyone do that? Seems like only if they knew it would guarantee victory, which seems unlikely. Otherwise it's too big a risk.
 
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - starts Nov. 2 SIGNUP!
GrimJester wrote:
Hm, I would be kinda bummed if I was playing this and there were "too many" toughs and/or brutals. It looks to me like no villager is going to be able to afford that

meh, normal villagers shouldn't buy these. Probable nevermind on this one.
 
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Brian Thomas
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - starts Nov. 2 SIGNUP!
GrimJester wrote:
So the higher your winning bid for your role is, the more buy-points you give to the other team. Is that the idea?

That's it!

Quote:
Hm, in that case why would anyone bid high for any role?

If you don't care about your role, and think that the game is perfectly balanced, then you should bid exactly evenly. In this case, it means bidding a total of 5 for villager and seer, and spending the other 5 on aux and wolf.

But, if you really prefer to be a specific role, then maybe you bid a little higher.

Or, if you think the ruleset is slanted toward evil or good, you should bid higher for that particular alignment - but then, it becomes less slanted.

Quote:
Hm, I would be kinda bummed if I was playing this and there were "too many" toughs and/or brutals. It looks to me like no villager is going to be able to afford that, but the wolves can probably easily afford at least 1 or 2.

True. At the cost of other things. The VPs are such that if the wolves use all their points to buy special powers, and the villagers all buy VPs, then the wolves will lose - they cannot gain enough through parity to overcome the villager's initial VP advantage.

Quote:
Oh yeah, when does the ability buying take place? All at the start, every night, any time?
All at the start.

Quote:
As for buying victory points, why would anyone do that?

It's designed to be a trade off - You have to decide between buying VPs straight up, buying a condition that gives you VPs (these pay substantially better than buying them), or buying abilities that give you a better shot at the game ending VPs.

It sounds like you think VPs are too expensive? What do you recommend?

To put it in perspective, consider someone who usually gets lynched D1, or who is a typical N1 kill. They should definitely buy VPs, rather than buying one of the conditionals that generate VPs or the special abilities. So you pay a higher price for VPs that are zero risk.
 
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - starts Nov. 2 SIGNUP!
Ok thanks.

bwt2q wrote:
It sounds like you think VPs are too expensive? What do you recommend?

I have no idea!

I thought it might be subject to calculation, making the ww part of the game moot. Looks like that's not the case per your trade-off example - that's pretty cool.
 
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - starts Nov. 2 SIGNUP!
bwt2q wrote:
If you don't care about your role, and think that the game is perfectly balanced, then you should bid exactly evenly. In this case, it means bidding a total of 5 for villager and seer, and spending the other 5 on aux and wolf.


Yeah, it sounds like this game will work out to be self-balancing as far as alignment goes. I really like that mechanic.
 
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - starts Nov. 2 SIGNUP!
I just signed up on Cassandra.
 
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - starts Nov. 2 SIGNUP!
I just signed up on Cassandra.
 
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - starts Nov. 2 SIGNUP!
You know, I forgot to actually sign up for this over the weekend even though I still want to play in it. But now I'm at work again. bwt2q, if you see this, could you please add me manually?
 
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - starts Nov. 2 SIGNUP!
Looking at the powers brought another possible power to mind.
Quote:
Tinker (2) - makes one random villager a Tinker, who will be seen as "Wolf" by the seer. May be bought multiple times. Note that the seer can spend points to cancel this.
How about:

Specify Tinker (4) - Choose a specific player. That player will become a Tinker, who will be seen as "Wolf" by the seer. If both Tinker and Specify Tinker are purchased, the Specify Tinker target(s) are chosen first.

That would be an entertaining option, resulting in some interesting discussion during the game when someone comes up Wolf to a seer view.
 
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Brian Thomas
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - starts Nov. 2 SIGNUP!
Avin wrote:
You know, I forgot to actually sign up for this over the weekend even though I still want to play in it. But now I'm at work again. bwt2q, if you see this, could you please add me manually?

Done, and gladly!
 
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - starts Nov. 2 SIGNUP!
Nykkel wrote:
How about:

Specify Tinker (4) - Choose a specific player. That player will become a Tinker, who will be seen as "Wolf" by the seer. If both Tinker and Specify Tinker are purchased, the Specify Tinker target(s) are chosen first.

That would be an entertaining option, resulting in some interesting discussion during the game when someone comes up Wolf to a seer view.


In general, I am definitely interested in player suggestions for additional powers. I will cost them as I see fit, of course, but I am willing to add things that people come up with.

I like the specific suggestion, as it allows the wolves to target someone that they think is particularly likely to be viewed. Given that the seer can de-tinker, I would bet that the wolves would not choose this (because it needs at least 2 more points to buy an additional Tinker to guard against de-tinkering), but I don't mind including it.
 
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - starts Nov. 2 - SIGNUP!
I am reasonably certain that this will be AWESOME.
 
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Brian Thomas
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - starts Nov. 2 - SIGNUP!
Still need 6 more. I think we could play this with any number, but it would be nice to have it full.
 
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Re: Riner Nitzia's Werewolf - Choose your role, buy special powers! Sign up! (starts Nov 2)
Can haz more players for this please? I went back and looked at bwt2q's other modded games, and man oh man do I regret having missed out on them.
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